Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
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    Default CLEO Sign-off Requirement to Stay?

    So I've been hearing rumors about getting rid of the CLEO sign-off, which excites me as a Philadelphia resident since the law enforcement of this great city finds itself immune to both federal and state regulations. I'm not looking forward to have to pay for a lawyer to set up a trust just because my county can't follow the law of the land.

    Anyway... I decided to Google it and see what's been going on. Apparently the rumors are a little over enthusiastic? It seems this has come up before, hasn't gone anywhere, and there isn't much difference this time.

    Anyone have any insight on the matter?

    http://blog.princelaw.com/2013/01/15...d-not-so-fast/

  2. #2
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    Default Re: CLEO Sign-off Requirement to Stay?

    The marketing of trusts has always looked a lot like the marketing of Amway dealerships, and even includes some of the multi-level marketing aspects, unsourced testimonials from shills, false claims, and participation from people who had to have the difference between the terms "Class III dealers" and "Class III firearms" explained to them here on PAFOA (Hint: Only one of those terms is real.)

    Try and get your Googled news from people with more than 2-3 years experience in firearms law, who aren't trying to sell you a trust. I've provided LLC's for people, if they really NEED something other than direct ownership, but I've also posted several times on PAFOA that it may be an option to wait & see what happens with the elimination of the CLEO signature, combined with the burdening of entities with background checks and forms on each responsible person.

    In other words, if you wait a year or 2 or 3, you may be able to file the forms and be treated like a human being instead of a criminal, even in Philadelphia. Prices will likely rise, maybe a lot, as the market expands to all those poor bastards living where nobody would sign off. Limited supply, larger market...do the math.

    It's not guaranteed to happen, but it's moved further than similar efforts have progressed before, and ATF really wants it now because of the risk of prohibited persons sneaking past them via trusts (mostly trusts, because there's no real coordination with the states). To get that check on the trust and LLC and corp owners, ATF appears willing to trade away the CLEO requirement, which is antiquated and pointless in the age of national computerized criminal history data.

    In other words, anyone with a trust, corp or LLC may have to submit to personal background checks in the near future, which makes the "privacy" selling point of trusts go away. Not so much for corps or LLC's, which are just as private in any meaningful sense, but have been sold for their better security and stability.

    I would expect that fewer people will need to hire me to create LLC's if this happens, which will be offset by the increased convenience when I can fill out the forms for my own transfers without that extra step of visiting the Sheriff. I'll still help people with LLC's if they want to share ownership, or they live in a non-free state and need an entity in Pennsylvania; but nobody should need one just because they can't get a signature where they live. Keep your fingers crossed.
    Attorney Phil Kline, AKA gunlawyer001@gmail.com
    Free seminar 7/18/19 in Quakertown: https://www.senatormensch.com/concealed-carry-seminar/

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
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    Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
    (Philadelphia County)
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    Default Re: CLEO Sign-off Requirement to Stay?

    Thanks GL. Still gotta spread more rep before I can contribute to yours again... Your input is always appreciated!

  4. #4
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    Moving back to Bucks!
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    Default Re: CLEO Sign-off Requirement to Stay?

    Gunlawyer101--

    I am thinking of setting up a trust. I would like to purchase a suppressor. I have been reading and trying to figure out which way is better and it sounds like setting up a trust is the way to go.

    Is this something you can do?
    Last edited by blueskiesPA; March 2nd, 2013 at 12:22 AM.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: CLEO Sign-off Requirement to Stay?

    Quote Originally Posted by blueskiesPA View Post
    Gunlawyer101--

    I am thinking of setting up a trust. I would like to purchase a suppressor. I have been reading and trying to figure out which way is better and it sounds like setting up a trust is the way to go.

    Is this something you can do?
    Drop me an email, we can discuss your needs.
    Attorney Phil Kline, AKA gunlawyer001@gmail.com
    Free seminar 7/18/19 in Quakertown: https://www.senatormensch.com/concealed-carry-seminar/

  6. #6
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    Default Re: CLEO Sign-off Requirement to Stay?

    Great, will email on Sunday, heading to bed, tomorrow I will be teaching all day. Send you info on Sunday.

    Thanks

  7. #7
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    Bechtelsville, Pennsylvania
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    Default Re: CLEO Sign-off Requirement to Stay?

    Quote Originally Posted by GunLawyer001 View Post
    Drop me an email, we can discuss your needs.
    That's interesting that you would offer to discuss his needs, when he said he wants to discuss a trust, and you have previously stated both that you don't know trust law and that you would never use a trust. One only needs to do a quick search to find that you only utilize LLCs.

    So, have you had a change of heart or are you misleading him into believing that you can provide him a service that you cannot?
    Joshua Prince, Esq. - Firearms Industry Consulting Group - www.PaFirearmsLawyer.com

  8. #8
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    Default Re: CLEO Sign-off Requirement to Stay?

    Quote Originally Posted by SigForLife View Post
    That's interesting that you would offer to discuss his needs, when he said he wants to discuss a trust, and you have previously stated both that you don't know trust law and that you would never use a trust. One only needs to do a quick search to find that you only utilize LLCs.

    So, have you had a change of heart or are you misleading him into believing that you can provide him a service that you cannot?
    I believe that you were warned not to misuse the forums in this manner.
    Attorney Phil Kline, AKA gunlawyer001@gmail.com
    Free seminar 7/18/19 in Quakertown: https://www.senatormensch.com/concealed-carry-seminar/

  9. #9
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    Apr 2007
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    Default Re: CLEO Sign-off Requirement to Stay?

    Quote Originally Posted by SigForLife View Post
    That's interesting that you would offer to discuss his needs, when he said he wants to discuss a trust, and you have previously stated both that you don't know trust law and that you would never use a trust. One only needs to do a quick search to find that you only utilize LLCs.

    So, have you had a change of heart or are you misleading him into believing that you can provide him a service that you cannot?
    This isn't the place to demand that another person justify his business publicly. All I see is an offer to discuss a matter. The content of that discussion would be between the two people involved. In other words, it is nobody's business but theirs, should they choose to discuss it. If you really have a problem with that offer, email him yourself and discuss it. But do not continue to try to bring it out publicly here on the board.

  10. #10
    Join Date
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    Butler, Pennsylvania
    (Allegheny County)
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    Default Re: CLEO Sign-off Requirement to Stay?

    Quote Originally Posted by SigForLife View Post
    That's interesting that you would offer to discuss his needs, when he said he wants to discuss a trust, and you have previously stated both that you don't know trust law and that you would never use a trust. One only needs to do a quick search to find that you only utilize LLCs.

    So, have you had a change of heart or are you misleading him into believing that you can provide him a service that you cannot?
    How is it interesting, that a competent attorney would want to help a potential client in the best way possible, by speaking to a person, determining his needs vs wants, and finding the best solution to meet both?

    I would hope that an attorney (or any other professional) would do the same for me, as I like to pay for expertise.

    In other words, If I went to a restaurant and told my waiter that I was looking for an amazing steak dinner, and I was thinking about ordering the Salisbury steak, I would hope that that waiter might review with me the filet mignonette, or the 16 oz angus strip steak (med rare) before just taking my order for the Salisbury and ignoring the possibility to provide me with a better meal.

    I would suppose that if the waiter in the establishment would just give me the Salisbury without making any other recommendation that could better suit my wants and needs, I'd be likely to say he wasn't a very good waiter.
    Sec. 21. The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State shall not be questioned.

    Sec. 25. To guard against transgressions of the high powers which we have delegated, we declare that everything in this article is excepted out of the general powers of government and shall forever remain inviolate.

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