Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #11
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    Default Re: Asked to leave The Mütter Museum for Open Carry

    I didn't think you were allowed to open carry in Philadelphia. Do you have a license to carry?

    While it sucks to be asked to leave they did have that right. Things would have been MUCH uglier if a Philly cop saw you!

  2. #12
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    Default Re: Asked to leave The Mütter Museum for Open Carry

    Open carry is legal with an LTCF, and yes, he has one.

    Not surprised at this encounter. Artsy and museum types seem to be a bit less logical. Although, I OCed at the art museum once and never heard about it.
    Junior

  3. #13
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    Default Re: Asked to leave The Mütter Museum for Open Carry

    Thanks for the heads up. I was planning to visit for the first time this year. I guess I will not be doing that now that I know the policy on guns there.
    Some people just plain suck.
    If you're gonna be dumb ya gotta be tough.

  4. #14
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    Default Re: Asked to leave The Mütter Museum for Open Carry

    That's one nice thing about the PA state museums & historic sites - preemption.

  5. #15
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    Default Re: Asked to leave The Mütter Museum for Open Carry

    Quote Originally Posted by scruff View Post
    That's one nice thing about the PA state museums & historic sites - preemption.
    What preemption applies to state agencies? Certainly not s. 6120 and s.6109(m.3)(2) is far from decided.
    IANAL

  6. #16
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    Default Re: Asked to leave The Mütter Museum for Open Carry

    Quote Originally Posted by mpan72 View Post
    Thanks for the heads up. I was planning to visit for the first time this year. I guess I will not be doing that now that I know the policy on guns there.

    You can still go I think. Just not open carry.


    Mutter and Company never told the OP that firearms were prohibited, and they have no such signage eluding that you cannot have a firearm.

    Conceal Carry is a wonderful "alternative".
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mK2JYfZAmA When will America become America?

  7. #17
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    Default Re: Asked to leave The Mütter Museum for Open Carry

    Quote Originally Posted by tl_3237 View Post
    What preemption applies to state agencies? Certainly not s. 6120 and s.6109(m.3)(2) is far from decided.
    I thought there was something regulating state agencies in the Castle Doctrine bill? Regardless, when we had our OC get-together in Erie last summer, I checked with the Maritime Museum beforehand, and the museum director checked with the museum commission in Harrisburg. Here's part of that exchange. I'm taking that to mean that we're good to go at all of their sites.

    Dear (scruff),
    Thank you for your interest in the Erie Maritime Museum, and thank you for checking with us regarding regulations/prohibitions. There is no prohibition against concealed carry for legally registered and permitted guns. Niagara will be in Kingston Ontario this weekend. Next availability for visitation in Erie will be 7/31 & 8/1. If you choose to visit the museum without the ship present I hope you enjoy your visit.

    Walter P. Rybka

    Dear Mr. Rybka,
    Thank you for the quick reply. Does that also apply to open carry?

    Best regards,
    (scruff)

    Dear (scruff),
    Legal review found no prohibition (except within the Capitol Complex in Harrisburg and certain posted areas such as County Courthouses) against carrying a gun as long as the gun was legal.

    Walter P. Rybka

  8. #18
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    Default Re: Asked to leave The Mütter Museum for Open Carry

    Quote Originally Posted by scruff View Post
    I thought there was something regulating state agencies in the Castle Doctrine bill? Regardless, when we had our OC get-together in Erie last summer, I checked with the Maritime Museum beforehand, and the museum director checked with the museum commission in Harrisburg. Here's part of that exchange. I'm taking that to mean that we're good to go at all of their sites.

    Dear (scruff),
    Thank you for your interest in the Erie Maritime Museum, and thank you for checking with us regarding regulations/prohibitions. There is no prohibition against concealed carry for legally registered and permitted guns. Niagara will be in Kingston Ontario this weekend. Next availability for visitation in Erie will be 7/31 & 8/1. If you choose to visit the museum without the ship present I hope you enjoy your visit.

    Walter P. Rybka

    Dear Mr. Rybka,
    Thank you for the quick reply. Does that also apply to open carry?

    Best regards,
    (scruff)

    Dear (scruff),
    Legal review found no prohibition (except within the Capitol Complex in Harrisburg and certain posted areas such as County Courthouses) against carrying a gun as long as the gun was legal.

    Walter P. Rybka
    Lack of a prohibition is not the same as preemption from making a prohibition.

    As to s.6109(m.3)(2) see:
    http://forum.pafoa.org/pennsylvania-...9-m-3-2-a.html


    and an interesting comment by a co-sponsor of HB40:

    Quote Originally Posted by 9orangeletters View Post

    Dear Mr. [9orangeletters]:

    Thank you for taking the time to contact my office about Act 10’s (the Castle Doctrine) amendment to Section 6109 of the Pennsylvania Uniform Firearms Act. That law created subsection (m.3) to provide that a state agency may not regulate the possession of firearms in a manner that is inconsistent with the provisions of the Pennsylvania Crimes Code, Title 18. You’ve expressed the opinion that this prohibits a state system of higher education (PASSHE) school from regulating the possession or carrying of firearms on campuses beyond what is permissible regulation under state law.

    To my knowledge, each of Pennsylvania’s state owned colleges and universities (PASSHE) has established policies which prohibit or restrict students, faculty and visitors from carrying or possessing a firearm on campus. Though state system universities have been recognized by the courts to be “state agencies”, I am not certain your interpretation is correct.

    As I noted, Section 6109 (m.3) of Title 18 provides that “nothing in this section (i.e., § 6109 pertaining to licenses) shall be construed to authorize a commonwealth agency to regulation the possession of firearms in any manner inconsistent with the provisions of this title”. It would therefore appear that this is meant only to limit commonwealth agencies from relying on a provision in Section 6109 as authority to regulate firearms contrary to what is provided for in Title 18. Therefore, if a regulation is not inconsistent with Title 18 or there is authority in another section or another statutory provision, that would not be preempted by this provision.

    Section 912 of Title 18 makes it a crime to possess a firearm on the property of a primary or secondary school. Though it does not apply to colleges and universities, there is nothing in Title 18 which expressly permits a person to possess a firearm on a college campus. Therefore, a regulation restricting possession of firearms on the campus of a state system university would not appear to be be “inconsistent” with Title 18.

    Likewise, the General Assembly has given the Presidents, Board of Governors and Council of Trustees of state system colleges broad authority to establish policies for the health and safety of students, faculty and staff. Of particular note, the Public School Code (24 P.S. § 20-2009) provides that the Council of Trustees of a state system school may adopt a resolution to permit campus police to carry firearms if they have met certain training standards. The same provision allows the Council to decide by resolution to withdraw that permission as well. It would be appear to be inconsistent if the law were to permit the governing authority of a state university to decide whether to allow it trained police force to be armed but not permit them to decide if students, faculty and staff can carry firearms.

    Be that as it may, whether the amendments to Section 6109 overrule the authority of PASSHE schools in this regard is a question I cannot answer. The interpretation of a particular provision of the law, particularly where two competing provisions might apply, is not something that a member of the General Assembly can decide and any opinion I may have would be merely my own and not binding on anyone else. Under the Pennsylvania Constitution, construction of the meaning of legislation is left to the courts to decide if a citizen disagrees with the interpretation given by a public official. Therefore, I would recommend that you consult with private legal counsel to discuss whether you might seek judicial review of Kutztown’s policy. I am sorry that there is no additional help I can offer you.

    Thank you for contacting me. I always welcome hearing from citizens on matters of important public policy like this. If I can be of further assistance please do not hesitate to contact me or my office.
    This is from Marcia Hahn, a co-sponsor of the bill.

    So here's my question: which statute trumps which statute, and does the new section 6109 as amended trump an agency from creating firearm policy?

    I have the number of the chief of security of kutztown (the university I attend) and was told that "he would welcome my comments", since their policy is under internal review, so I'm going to call sometime this week, but I was hoping to have some good discussion points.
    As I indicated before the interpretation of the 6109 state agency preclusion is far from settled.
    IANAL

  9. #19
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    Default Re: Asked to leave The Mütter Museum for Open Carry

    That's fine. I'm not here to argue law or to derail this thread, just to point out that OC is apparently allowed in the 2 dozen or so PA Historical & Museum Commission sites. And that's a good thing.

  10. #20
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    Default Re: Asked to leave The Mütter Museum for Open Carry

    Quote Originally Posted by CenterTree View Post

    You can still go I think. Just not open carry.


    Mutter and Company never told the OP that firearms were prohibited, and they have no such signage eluding that you cannot have a firearm.

    Conceal Carry is a wonderful "alternative".
    I only conceal in one place.
    Some people just plain suck.
    If you're gonna be dumb ya gotta be tough.

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