Founders Intention for Government - Constitutional Carry

[thebearpack]

Really????

I don't see any way to hit a reset button. And here's why. These words from the OP are something I've been thinking about a lot lately:

But they (The Founders) expected that government would be strictly limited to those areas detailed in the Constitution and would be constrained to do so by the US Supreme Court.

They believed that ALL POWER resides in the PEOPLE and that government MUST SERVE THE PEOPLE rather than itself. They never intended the government to become or operate like a monarchy and specifically built safeguards to prevent that from happening. They truly believed that people should have the liberty and freedom, as well as responsibility, to govern their own affairs without the goverment lording power over them.

Yet today, individualism and self-reliance are considered anti-social. The concepts of personal responsibility have been replaced with societal responsibility for every factor of our lives - remember, it takes a village. These very basic concepts upon which liberty and freedom succeed have been thrown aside in this mad dash toward socialism where supposedly no one is personally responsible and everyone can be washed clean if only we acquiesce.

The Supreme Court has become a defacto super-legislature with it's attendant political factions and pressures to assure a pleasing result to those to whom it is beholding for it's power. It has not only failed to protect us from the rest of the government lording their power over us, but has joined in just such an effort.

As long as the government can convince people that it will keep them warm and safe and well fed, people will be willing to give up their own liberty and freedom. To protect their source of well being they are also willing to help the government take the liberty and freedom from whomever disagrees with the new order. Yet, we are only one major disaster away from the collapse of the welfare state which has only been sustained through the massive debt accumulation over the past few decades. When the wealth creators in this country no longer are interested in being the money tree and that debt must be paid and a major crisis occurs, all those socialist welfare minded people are going to have a rude awakening to our true situation.

Those few paragraphs sum up the problem we're facing. Few Americans believe that the average citizen was supposed to be armed and trained as a check to an overreaching government. Now we essentially have an oligarchy who control the largest standing army in the world while citizens are disarmed subjects. People have happily given up freedom after freedom in the name of safety and career politicians have used that to their advantage to consolidate power (and the wealth it brings) for themselves. Worse, most citizens are totally fine with that. As long as people have a house, two cars, smart phones, big screen TVs, and air conditioning, who really cares about what the US was supposed to be 200+ years ago versus what it really is now.

We haven't even talked about how privately owned land can be taken away, how the use of that land is controlled by bureaucrats, how our money is worthless paper, how we're crippled by crushing debt, how we can no longer eat/drink/smoke/own/say what we want... we're still "free", aren't we? Most Americans think so. How are we going to convince them to give all that up? Not gonna happen. Not for some outdated ideas on a piece of musty paper most Americans have never read.

[Carnes]

I don't see any way to hit a reset button. And here's why. These words from the OP are something I've been thinking about a lot lately:



Those few paragraphs sum up the problem we're facing. Few Americans believe that the average citizen was supposed to be armed and trained as a check to an overreaching government. Now we essentially have an oligarchy who control the largest standing army in the world while citizens are disarmed subjects. People have happily given up freedom after freedom in the name of safety and career politicians have used that to their advantage to consolidate power (and the wealth it brings) for themselves. Worse, most citizens are totally fine with that. As long as people have a house, two cars, smart phones, big screen TVs, and air conditioning, who really cares about what the US was supposed to be 200+ years ago versus what it really is now.

We haven't even talked about how privately owned land can be taken away, how the use of that land is controlled by bureaucrats, how our money is worthless paper, how we're crippled by crushing debt, how we can no longer eat/drink/smoke/own/say what we want... we're still "free", aren't we? Most Americans think so. How are we going to convince them to give all that up? Not gonna happen. Not for some outdated ideas on a piece of musty paper most Americans have never read.

You've correctly identified a lot of the problem. Problems do have solutions, ya know.

This moment is not the right time to run out the front door with torches and pitchforks. But I there have been moments that passed, and there will certainly be moments to come. You can either throw in the towel, or actively look for the right opportunity. The more people that are looking for the opportunity, the greater the chance to seize it. Most of the nation is apathetic, that was also the case when 3% of an apathetic America created the US.

Quitters never win. So, let's start working on solutions.

[ImminentDanger]

The principles of individualism, self-reliance and personal responsibility are missing.

The enemy is no longer 3 thousand miles away - It is within our sieve-like borders. Sixty thousand patriots (3% of 2M) may have been enough in 1776, but getting 10 million people today (3% of 350M) to put their fortunes, no less their lives, on the line may be a lot more difficult.

When the solution requires the thinking and attitude of millions of people to be similar to that of the Founding Fathers, that solution is extremely difficult to achieve - It may require the near collapse of our country to be "the right opportunity" for enough people to even begin to see THE problem as THEIR problem.

It is not incomprehensible that this country, built on the principles of inalienable rights, could be irretrievably lost. When those exact rights are no longer prized by it's powerful leaders, self-satisfied voters and deliberate anarchists, they will then be deemed privileges of the Federal largess and will be distributed only to those who support the continued Federal control of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

There may have been only a small number of men who contemplated and crafted the concepts of the Founding Principles, but, those expressed principles were readily embraced by a large percentage of the population because, as expressed, they matched a lifestyle principle which was already part of their lives. I have my doubts whether even a simple majority of US citizens have the principles of individualism, self-reliance and personal responsibility at the core of their daily lives.

The Founders not only had a belief in a Creator-God, but they perceived our rights as 'endowed' by that Creator, inalienable by men. While today there is still a huge majority of Americans who claim to believe in God (some god), there is a shrinking minority who order their lives around such a belief or even acknowledge our inalienable rights are from the Creator-God.

We should continue trying to educate every citizen in regards to the Founding Principles. But, despite my loathing of pessimism, I cannot in good conscience say I see America, ever again, being willing to embrace and operate from those Founding Principles. I believe we've crossed a tipping point that cannot be overcome. The tentacles of Federal power, supported by the Supreme Court and embraced by States (in order to get funding), has become so pervasive that it will never be contained within the Constitutional boundaries again. And the current educational system has been corrupted by supplanting the accurate teaching of American History with the teaching of world citizenship, almost wholly socialistic.

I believe our best efforts now (and we must use our energy for best efforts) will garner only a delay in the eventual erosion of all perceptions of inalienable rights. Fostering this delay is better than doing nothing. It is necessary to preserve as long as possible what is left of respect for our rights.

Which brings us around again to the original point of this thread - SUPPORT CONSTITUTIONAL CARRY - Ownership and Carrying of Firearms "Shall not be infringed" and "Shall not be questioned" - That's the meaning of the 2nd Amendment.

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[thebearpack]

Quitters never win. So, let's start working on solutions.

True enough, but I honestly can't imagine any real, viable long-term solutions. I really can't.

I cannot in good conscience say I see America, ever again, being willing to embrace and operate from those Founding Principles. I believe we've crossed a tipping point that cannot be overcome. The tentacles of Federal power, supported by the Supreme Court and embraced by States for it's funding, has become so pervasive that it will never be contained within the Constitutional boundaries again.

This is where I'm at too. It's not exactly "game over" in the sense that I've given up. It's just that I've resigned myself to living my remaining days in a country that is less and less like the country I grew up in. That said, I'll still vote for the people who are least likely to speed up the decline and still have a chance to instill a vision of what America was supposed to be in my kid. So maybe the fight will continue but it's going to be a tough, uphill battle.

[ImminentDanger]

Millennials would rather live in socialist or communist nation than under capitalism
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news...ist-fascist-o/
For Millennials: "The most popular socioeconomic order was socialism"

Even overall (includes the large Baby Boomer group now 55+): "Fifty-nine percent of all respondents chose capitalism as their preferred arrangement, compared to 34 percent who said socialism, 4 percent fascism and 3 percent communism."

This is the latest evidence that we have crossed the tipping point. Since capitalism is the economic system based on freedom & responsibility, this preference for socialism by 34% of all respondents shows a current & future expansion of the lack of commitment to the founding principles of freedom, individualism, self-reliance and personal responsibility.

Granted, when capitalism is pursued with only greed as it's driving force, it tends to violate other principles of social well-being, especially when consumers are similarly driven by only the lowest price or maximum return on their investment in the market, regardless of the anti-American marketing practices that that promotes. But no economic system is devoid of issues, just like all governmental systems have issues, but our Constitution and Free Markets are still the best practice despite their limitations.

The ME-only attitude promoted since the 60's has begun to bear fruits in the self-serving actions of people in all economic strata of our society and demonstrate in the no-holds-barred political attacks. That self-serving attitude has produced the mega-corporations deliberately killing small local businesses, every corporation and self-interest-group having a Washington-based lobbyist to distort laws to their favor and the out-of-country-sourcing of all types of material & work to chase the very last penny of profit - all with no thought or care of the cost to the long-term welfare of America. Similarly, that ME-only attitude has engendered the ubiquitous internet selfie and anti-privacy facepage, the unbridled spewing of contentious opinions as entertainment and gleeful hate-filled personal attacks. These things are not politically one-sided, either.

Changing Who Is In Power Doesn't Necessarily Solve The Problem

Many of those who are joyful over President Trump's election are looking for him to right the wrongs of the past, and in some cases, seeking revenge. But the problem of the Federal Government usurping the Rights of The People is not solved by the Federal Government simply doing what YOU WANT it to do. That is a perpetuation of the problem - to your benefit at the moment - until another faction takes over the usurpation.

The founding principles of this country (freedom, individualism, self-reliance and personal responsibility) call for LIMITED GOVERNMENT, not simply government that does your preferred bidding. In that vein, the States were to provide the opportunity for local individuals to solve local problems in their own way. The founding principles, when rightly supported, were not for the purpose of HOMOGENIZING the States through federal edict, but, rather, to allow the free expression of different solution choices by the people who actually populated the various states. The federalization of all important issues has usurped the Rights of The People, within their own states, to choose for themselves.

I'm afraid (too) many people from all political persuasions have lost site of the tolerance of unpopular choices that the Constitution protected. It was meant to prevent the imposition of those choices on other-minded individuals, but it was never meant to eliminate the freedom for other individuals to make those unpopular choices for themselves. That, really, is the basis of the concept of Private Property, which has also been assaulted by local zoning ordinances, homeowner covenants and which is before the Supreme Court right now in regards to the freedom of choices by business property owners (wedding cakes, flowers, etc.).

Freedom is a messy business - it calls for tolerance in order to preserve freedom. Those who wish to implement on others, their sanitized utopia, through government programs & edicts, through threats & intimidation, or through violent protests & force, even if they think they have good intentions, are destroying the very basis upon which this nation was founded.


When I see individuals & their politicians intentionally working to reduce the size of government & the scope of issues upon which it impinges on the freedom of The People, I will then begin to have a glimmer of hope for this country.

That hasn't happened yet - I'm not holding my breath!

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[ImminentDanger]

Lest there be any confusion about my support of the most recent Constitutional Carry bill (another thread), I'll revive this thread (which originated 6 years ago) to reiterate my support for such a condition in Pennsylvania.

Although I'm pessimistic about the potential restoration of the real America, we need to continue to push for the respect that the Constitutions (both State & Federal) deserve... Even when you can't prevent others from doing the wrong thing, you should try your best to minimize the results that will surely follow...

A wide-spread & clear conversation, regarding the intended & proper nature of our (limited) government, is critically important if we are ever to convince people to demand the proper position of power FOR THE PEOPLE... Constitutional Carry is one of those proper powers FOR THE PEOPLE...

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[Pilot321]

We have allowed corrupt politicians, upheld by corrupt courts to nullify the Constitution. A complicit Media has convinced half the populace it is an old, outdated, meaningless document that should be scoffed at. This is the basis for our problems as a collection of states today.

[Gunsnwater]

Guns are just a badge. The real threat to your liberty is the technology bearing down on us. Talk about great distractions while the pot is heating up. So much shit pinging off your brain, outrageous shit really. All the while the cage is being built all around us and hardly a notice unless its attractive enough to make you buy it.

And yes they did.

The founders knew all too well how things would likely go.

And they warned us.

[:-)]

[ImminentDanger]

Intrusion of Big Brother in All Public Life.

The future of "smart" cities is in street lights
by Jennifer A. Kingson - February 11, 2021
https://www.axios.com/smart-cities-s...a0b8058d9.html
Partial quotations follow:

The big picture: There's been lots of hype about "smart cities," where connected technology helps governments serve us better * but also lots of money wasted on expensive projects that fizzled or caused public outcry over police use of camera surveillance.

Today, hopes have coalesced around the potential for "smart" street lights, which bear sensors that can do everything from analyzing traffic patterns to assisting 911 operators.
<SNIP>

The brass ring for cities is to compile data from smart street lights and sell it for profit.

The bottom line: "We're seeing a lot of cities buying back their street lights from utilities," Gardner tells Axios.

"Because all of a sudden, they've woken up to the fact that, hey * you know, the boring, kind of arcane corner of the municipal infrastructure space, the street light poles? They're actually critical assets that we need to own and control."

And BIG Government Causing Real Division Everywhere!

Government Decisions About Our Lives Divide Us Further Apart
By Tom Del Beccaro - 09 February 2021
https://www.newsmax.com/tomdelbeccar...09/id/1009328/

Americans today are deeply divided.

Nearly every aspect of our society, from our politics, to our entertainment, to our ubiquitous social media, is strife with division. While it may be easy to blame each other for failing to reach common ground, such sentiment is actually misplaced. It's time we understand that our current divisions are not primarily driven because we hold views too dearly or even by the ideological differences as Republicans or Democrats.

After all, in 1804, Chief Justice John Marshall, wrote of America that, "At length, two great parties were formed in every state." He then went on to describe those parties in terms familiar to our country today:

"The one struggled with unabated zeal for the exact observance of public and private engagements. . . . The distresses of individuals were, they thought, to be alleviated only by industry and frugality, not by a relaxation of the laws, or by a sacrifice of the rights of others. . . . The other party marked out for themselves a more indulgent course. . . . Viewing with extreme tenderness the case of the debtor, their efforts were unceasingly directed to his relief. To exact a faithful compliance with contracts was, in their opinion, a harsh measure. . . . which the people would not bear."

Along such lines, like most peoples in history, we have always been ideologically divided, but * we have not always been this divisive.

"Our Divided Era," my term for this period in time, even reached Super Bowl LV.

During the game (Sunday, Feb. 7) a Jeep television ad aired preaching unity and common ground, it featured Bruce Springsteen as a Kansas farmer. For many, it's a nice sentiment. However, it was cynical, of course, to cast Springsteen in that light given that the New Jersey native suggested he would leave the United States if the last election didn*t go his way. At the time, he claimed he was only joking.

Nevertheless, Americans want answers as to why we fight so much politically. In simple terms, we fight so much because there is so much to fight about.

Today our governments, from city councils, to the federal government, inclusive of the Federal Reserve, spend over $10 trillion per year or nearly half the entire U.S. economy.

In doing so, it's important us to recognize that every action government undertakes, every expenditure it makes, and every regulation it promulgates results in winners and losers and someone * or many * wind up paying for it. We fight either personally or through our parties to be those winners and to have someone else pay for all of it. Also, and not surprisingly, with our governments writing $10 trillion in checks, human nature takes over and Americans compete to get those spoils of government. We also compete to have our chosen party be the party doling out such spoils.

It wasn*t always so. According to historian Harlow Giles Unger, "Settlers isolated in the hamlets and woods of New England . . . lived free of almost all government authority for more than 150 years. They had cleared the land, felled great forests, built homes and churches, planted their fields, hunted, fished and fought off Indian marauders on their own, cooperating with each other, collectively governing themselves, electing their militia commanders and church pastors and turning to assemblies of elders to mediate occasional disputes. . . . [T]hey . . . lived in freedom, without government intrusion in their lives and saw little need for it."

I assure you, America of then was less divided then than we are today. Now, government intrudes in every aspect of our lives, and we are deeply divided.

At one end of the spectrum, city councils decide the scope of our property rights, including the size of our homes * what used to be our inviolate castles. At the other end of the spectrum, the federal government restricts and regulates the mattresses on which we sleep, the food we eat, the cars we buy, the fuel we use to get to work, the rules that apply at our workplaces, the TV we watch after work, and the lights we turn off at night * not to mention the manner in which our children are taught and the healthcare we receive. In between are state governments rushing to fill the vacuum of virtually every freedom we leave unattended.

Each such regulation or tax is to someone*s detriment and another*s profit. We take such competition to new heights in our tax code, which long ago abandoned its principal purpose * to raise money * in favor of political favoritism. So, as to why we are so divided today versus just decades ago, with so much at stake each day, it has become nearly impossible for any Americans and their businesses to sit on the sidelines while others decide their fate.

In the process, our coliseums, once known for sports, have become our chambers of government, pitting citizen against citizen, business against business, taxpayer against tax user, and endless combinations of the same.

Yes, we have policy differences and always will. Yes, the Left and the Right believe differently.

So what is so different about now? Our differences are now being imposed in a previously unimaginable scope by our $10 trillion governments.

In other words, the more government decides, the more it divides * and that is the main dynamic that is driving us further and further apart as the clock ticks.

It is critical to elect Constitution-loving politicians in order for the Constitution(s) to survive. Prepare now for the next election.

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