Road Rage and a weapon?

[Scubaru_Steve]

So this is something I never quite know how to judge.

I drive a car that can draw some attention



Its not some little honda with a fart cannon here to piss off the world. Its a turbocharged 2004 Subaru WRX with over $5k in modifications; I do run it in AutoX and take it on some back roads in Wellsboro and Williamsport.

All too often I get those that "don't approve" of my vehicle and need to make their thoughts known.

I've been...
- Swerved at
- Flicked off
- Spit at while driving by
- Been Tailgated

Well the one story that really conveys my fears happened a few weeks ago. One of the gas workers in the jacked up disel trucks is riding infront of me in the passing lane, I'm a good two car lengths back, out of the blue he stomps on it covering my car in black smoke followed by a brake check. Okay fine, I get that a lot. It's when I moved over into the cruising lane and notice him falling back in his lane to a few car lengths behind me, I look in my side view mirror to see him flooring it and drifting into my lane, he literally pushed me over the rumble strip to stay clear of him (After this I did lower my window to show a bit of how I felt). Finally I get off the one exit and he follows, riding within 5' of my bumper the whole way down the ramp.

I did file a police report with license plate number but nothing came of it.

So if I was carrying at the time, would that have been an option in defense? At the end of the ramp we came to a stop at a red light and I was waiting to see his door open to attempt to come up to my vehicle, but even after what he had done, where do I condone making my weapon's presence known. In my eyes his vehicle is very much a weapon and he was using it in a manor conveying danger to myself and those around me.

What are my limits with using a weapon in road rage and other means of disrespect for my vehicle and myself?

*Now I would like to make it known, Yes I drive a car that in some peoples eyes looks like something out of Fast 'n Furious and therefore I an obviously a little punk who drives like an idiot. I am in college for Manufacturing Engineering, I also hold an engineering position at a machine shop while in school, plus a part time job, and I have started my own business. I am far from the "punk" some choose to peg me as*

[XACEX]

if you are seriously thinking about using a gun because some one is tailgating you and being an asshole, you shouldnt be allowed to have one.

if he tries to carjack you, walk up to your door and shoot you, or forcibly remove you from your vehicle, then MAYBE if you have ZERO other means of escape (which you almost always do in a turbo 4x4) you can CONSIDER drawing your gun. MAYBE.

but dont be an idiot like Andy Reid's son and get yourself thrown in jail cause someones being a dick to you

[Scubaru_Steve]

if you are seriously thinking about using a gun because some one is tailgating you and being an asshole, you shouldnt be allowed to have one.

if he tries to carjack you, walk up to your door and shoot you, or forcibly remove you from your vehicle, then MAYBE if you have ZERO other means of escape (which you almost always do in a turbo 4x4) you can CONSIDER drawing your gun. MAYBE.

but dont be an idiot like Andy Reid's son and get yourself thrown in jail cause someones being a dick to you

I understand the concern but I was hoping making this thread shows I am doing the research before I find myself making an unideal choice, therefore taking the time to educate myself.

I was pinned between concrete barriers, a vehicle infront of me and him behind me, not a lot of options even with a turbocharged car. If he had got out of his car this is when I am considering using a weapon as force. The way I look at it he has already made his feeling towards me known by his driving, if he got out of his car that would be a point to consider my weapon before anything else conspired.

Let me ask this, is it illegal to put my hand on my weapon in my holstered making it known I am carrying? I am a 180# 6 ft tall guy, so I'm not very big and don't have much to defend myself. Is making my weapon known illegal if he did get out of his car for whatever reason?

[XACEX]

despite PA not having "brandishing" laws. you cannot threaten deadly force unless you are allowed to use deadly force.

in the situation that he comes up to your vehicle and you are trapped, you can use deadly force in self defense if he threatens you in such a way as to make you reasonably fear death, SERIOUS bodily injury, kidnapping, or rape; and the castle doctrine will allow you to assume (rebuttably) one of those things if he attempts to remove you from your vehicle.

if he just stands there and yells at your window, you cant do a thing, and drawing/pointing/flashing your gun will get you arrested. just putting your hand on it might be ok if you dont do it as a threat, but that is a fine line


IANAL

[XACEX]

keep an eye on this thread:



http://forum.pafoa.org/concealed-car...ce-county.html

[TXDMERC73]

dang you can just smoke em off !

[General Geoff]

What are my limits with using a weapon in road rage and other means of disrespect for my vehicle and myself?

Drawing on someone simply for disrespecting you or your car is inexcusable. You do not draw a firearm on someone unless you fear for life or limb.

Also, you should not further antagonize people who show you "disrespect" on the road by "showing them a bit of how you felt." Stooping to their level is not helping anyone's day. You drive a nice car, try to show some class while you're in it.




ETA: You drive a fast sports car, and you know how to drive, seeing as you participate in local autocrossing events. While in your car, and especially when bothered by road ragers, think tactically about how to use your car as a potent means of escape. Always leave room in front of you to maneuver around cars if stopped, and consider all options for hauling ass out of there IN YOUR CAR before considering a physical fight (involving guns or otherwise). You have the advantage of a fast, nimble car should they choose to attempt to pursue, and you can call 911 and high-tail it to a police station so you don't have to haunt yourself with possibly killing someone in self defense. It's just a better option all the way around.

[kbcobra26]

I've been...
- Swerved at
- Flicked off
- Spit at while driving by
- Been Tailgated

Haven't we all been?

I'm a good two car lengths back...

That's a bit close imo. He probably thought you were being an asshole to him so he'd be an asshole back.

Just sayin..

[GunLawyer001]

despite PA not having "brandishing" laws. you cannot threaten deadly force unless you are allowed to use deadly force.

. . .

Actually...no. The USE of deadly force and the THREATENED USE of deadly force are both governed by the principle of "justification", but the rules are different.

You can't USE deadly force unless you face imminent threat of death, rape, kidnapping, or crippling injuries.

But you can make threats all day long, as long as the harm you seek to avoid is greater than the harm that your threats cause (the statutes look at the harm statutes are intended to prevent, so you can't threaten death because someone shoplifted, but you might be justified in threatening death to avoid an unprovoked beating. It's "scare the bad guy" vs "suffer an unjustified beating", and in the opinion of your peers, the actual beating is probably worse than the mere threat, even when accompanied by a defensive display of a weapon.

Here's the general rule:
§ 503. Justification generally
(a) General rule.--Conduct which the actor believes to be necessary to avoid a harm or evil to himself or to another is justifiable if:

(1) the harm or evil sought to be avoided by such conduct is greater than that sought to be prevented by the law defining the offense charged;

(2) neither this title nor other law defining the offense provides exceptions or defenses dealing with the specific situation involved; and

(3) a legislative purpose to exclude the justification claimed does not otherwise plainly appear.

(b) Choice of evils.--When the actor was reckless or negligent in bringing about the situation requiring a choice of harms or evils or in appraising the necessity for his conduct, the justification afforded by this section is unavailable in a prosecution for any offense for which recklessness or negligence, as the case may be, suffices to establish culpability.

Here's a snippet from the rule on using deadly force:
The use of deadly force is not justifiable under this section unless the actor believes that such force is necessary to protect himself against death, serious bodily injury, kidnapping or sexual intercourse compelled by force or threat. . . .

See the difference? Making threats is not "using" deadly force, so you're looking to compare an actual beating, against nasty words and a display of a weapon. Threats can easily constitute reckless endangerment, terroristic threats, assault, harassment, or disorderly conduct, so they ARE illegal...usually...but some times they are justified. And the threshold is lower than the point where you'd be excused for killing a person.

Regardless, expect to be arrested if you threaten to shoot someone. But that's still better than a tire iron to the face.

[ray h]

This thread makes me sad that I'm human.