Philadelphia Police Encounter - Not bad, still annoying.

[SouthPhilly]

So, I live in South Philadelphia and was up in the bed of my truck, breaking down a wooden skid and evidently my shirt came above the handle of my G20, yes I CC full-sizes since I'm not a girly man . They saw the grip on my right hip and came back around the block, stopped in the middle of the street and started to walk over.

Soon as I saw them, I looked down at my side and could see the shirt got tucked between my hip and the inside of the gun while working in the bed of my truck, so I knew what it was about.

Two male officers, probably mid-30's started to walk up. No guns out, no hesitation or tough guy acts, no warnings or "place your hands..." etc. They simply said, "Sorry man, but we got a freaked out call that someone was carrying a weapon and then we saw you in your truck. I'm sure you have your license, but could we see it please?"

I gave them my LTCF, the one officer asked me to lift my shirt a bit so he could get the serial without having to take it out, but it was blocked so he told me he'd be taking it out for the serial #.

They wrote it down, checked the serial and LTCF, then said, "Everything is good, sorry again."

I mean, they were cool about the whole thing, but my question is, do they HAVE to take the serial and run everything, everytime a LTCF is provided? I never heard of anybody else having theirs ran in regular stops.

[bill gray]

I would say they went too far in running the serial number. Running your LTCF can be justified in Phila. As a "city of the first class" you need it to carry at all. (That requirement is limited to Phila) But once that is checked out there is no authority to continue with a search since they have no indication of a crime. In addition, the non-registry they are checking it through is, by definition, incomplete. A report of "no record" has no meaning except that it was not bought or transferred within Penna. There are several ways you could legally come into possession of the firearm without it being listed (not "registered"), e.g. you moved with it from another State or it was gifted to you by certain relatives.

[libra8]

By taking the serial number they illegally searched you. Of course you didn't object. They violated your 4th Amendment rights. All they needed to do was check to see if you had a valid LTCF.

[Curmudgeon]

By taking the serial number they illegally searched you. Of course you didn't object. They violated your 4th Amendment rights. All they needed to do was check to see if you had a valid LTCF.

^This. I seriously hope you make out a complaint about their behavior. The encounter went fairly well except for that. A blatant violation of your 4th Amendment rights should be taken very seriously.

You can pursue this with the officer's superiors as well as Internal Affairs. These officers need an education.

EDIT: Unless you consented to the search. That sets a bad precedent.
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[SouthPhilly]

^This. I seriously hope you make out a complaint about their behavior. The encounter went fairly well except for that. A blatant violation of your 4th Amendment rights should be taken very seriously.

You can pursue this with the officer's superiors as well as Internal Affairs. These officers need an education.

Will do. I will look into the proper contact methods for IA and if it's dependent upon each district or one whole.

[Curmudgeon]

Will do. I will look into the proper contact methods for IA and if it's dependent upon each district or one whole.

To be clear, the check of your LTCF was likely both legal and constitutional (in Philly). It was the running of your serial that was out of line.

[flyingjunkie]

This serial number bull is really old. When are they going to stop breaking the law themselves? There is no registry to be running the firearm against and unless they have RAS to believe that the firearm you are carry is stolen, there is no reason for them to be running the serial. By the rules given to you by your having an LTCF, they technically can't give you a hard time about the firearm even if it comes up as not being yours because you are allowed to have a firearm loaned to you:

18 Pa.C.S. § 6115: Loans on, or lending or giving firearms prohibited

(b) Exception.--
(1) Subsection (a) shall not apply if any of the following apply:
(i) The person who receives the firearm is licensed to carry a firearm under section 6109 (relating to licenses).

They are just running it against that database that isn't a database but is still used as a database.

18 Pa.C.S. § 6111.4: Registration of firearms

Notwithstanding any section of this chapter to the contrary, nothing in this chapter shall be construed to allow any government or law enforcement agency or any agent thereof to create, maintain or operate any registry of firearm ownership within this Commonwealth. For the purposes of this section only, the term "firearm" shall include any weapon that is designed to or may readily be converted to expel any projectile by the action of an explosive or the frame or receiver of any such weapon.

[mbinpa]

I gotta consider this an above average encounter - at least for Philadelphia.

They say they got a call about MWAG - they are going to stop by and check it out. And if they got a call they probably have to log it somehow. Every encounter I have ever had with LEOs, whether motor vehicle related or not, resulted in them asking for my drivers license. They need (or at least feel the need) to make positive identification and to write something down.

I agree that the LEO had the right to ask for LTCF - it's Philly and (stretching it) it was in a vehicle - whether OC or CC. That should have been enough info to end the encounter. But we know that LE loves to copy serial numbers, even if they don't run them. They probably also noted the license plate on the truck.

I think there is a balance between standing one's ground and getting on with one's day. The OP would have been well within his rights to refuse to provide serial number. But then what? 30 minutes waiting for the situation to resolve itself and a huge increase in the stress level?

I probably would have done exactly what the OP did. Maybe even thank the officers for stopping by. Not every meeting has to be adversarial. I certainly don't think a negative report against the LEOs is warranted. They asked, the OP consented. I would be more interested in learning why it is apparently procedure to check serial numbers when the carrier has a LTCF.

[SouthPhilly]

I gotta consider this an above average encounter - at least for Philadelphia.

They say they got a call about MWAG - they are going to stop by and check it out. And if they got a call they probably have to log it somehow. Every encounter I have ever had with LEOs, whether motor vehicle related or not, resulted in them asking for my drivers license. They need (or at least feel the need) to make positive identification and to write something down.

I agree that the LEO had the right to ask for LTCF - it's Philly and (stretching it) it was in a vehicle - whether OC or CC. That should have been enough info to end the encounter. But we know that LE loves to copy serial numbers, even if they don't run them. They probably also noted the license plate on the truck.

I think there is a balance between standing one's ground and getting on with one's day. The OP would have been well within his rights to refuse to provide serial number. But then what? 30 minutes waiting for the situation to resolve itself and a huge increase in the stress level?

I probably would have done exactly what the OP did. Maybe even thank the officers for stopping by. Not every meeting has to be adversarial. I certainly don't think a negative report against the LEOs is warranted. They asked, the OP consented. I would be more interested in learning why it is apparently procedure to check serial numbers when the carrier has a LTCF.

That's what I wanted to avoid, a long drawn out process of them calling more cars, making me late to pick up my little sister, just to add come to the same end result. The main reason I made it easier also, was their demeanor. They were cool about everything, apologized for 'having' to stop, etc.

They even went on to make some small talk after going for the serial, asking if there was "one in the pipe" and responding with "like it should be, good man" after I said yes, etc.

[XavierBK]

So you're ok with them raping your rights, as long as they are polite and chit-chat with you while doing it? Noted.