Philadelphia Police Encounter - Not bad, still annoying.

[Statkowski]

I gotta consider this an above average encounter - at least for Philadelphia.

That may be, but....

They say they got a call about MWAG - they are going to stop by and check it out.

The U.S. Supreme Court says otherwise. They can get all the calls they want, and they aren't obligated to do squat.

And if they got a call they probably have to log it somehow.

"Arrived on scene, saw nobody doing anything illegal, departed scene."

Every encounter I have ever had with LEOs, whether motor vehicle related or not, resulted in them asking for my drivers license.

And just because they ask doesn't mean it has to be complied with.

They need (or at least feel the need) to make positive identification and to write something down.

Their problem is not necessarily my problem.

I agree that the LEO had the right to ask for LTCF - it's Philly and (stretching it) it was in a vehicle - whether OC or CC.

Did they have RAS that a crime was being committed? That you were suspected of such? Carrying a firearm in and of itself is not illegal. Did they have any reason to believe that you did not possess an LTCF? If not, asking for your LTCF was an illegal search.

That should have been enough info to end the encounter. But we know that LE loves to copy serial numbers, even if they don't run them. They probably also noted the license plate on the truck.

The license plate on the truck was in plain view for all the world to see. The firearm's serial number, however, was not.

I think there is a balance between standing one's ground and getting on with one's day. The OP would have been well within his rights to refuse to provide serial number. But then what? 30 minutes waiting for the situation to resolve itself and a huge increase in the stress level?

I probably would have done exactly what the OP did. Maybe even thank the officers for stopping by. Not every meeting has to be adversarial. I certainly don't think a negative report against the LEOs is warranted. They asked, the OP consented. I would be more interested in learning why it is apparently procedure to check serial numbers when the carrier has a LTCF.

Can't argue with the preceding. OP should file a written complaint with the PPD, with an info copy to his State Representative.

[Curmudgeon]

That's what I wanted to avoid, a long drawn out process of them calling more cars, making me late to pick up my little sister, just to add come to the same end result. The main reason I made it easier also, was their demeanor. They were cool about everything, apologized for 'having' to stop, etc.

They even went on to make some small talk after going for the serial, asking if there was "one in the pipe" and responding with "like it should be, good man" after I said yes, etc.

Since when does it have to take 30 minutes to say "I will comply with your demand but I DO NOT give my consent to your seizure and search of my property. Then follow up as suggested.

The problem with going along for the sake of convenience is that every time we allow our rights to be violated we send the subtle message that it's OK. If everyone simply refused consent at each opportunity we wouldn't be having a lot of these issues now.

Standing up for our rights absolutely does not have to be a bloody or nightmarish scenario, as some would have you believe. You can be every bit as courteous and professional as they are. Quite likely, they have just been misinformed or poorly trained. This is why it's important to take the issue up with their superiors, as that is probably the only source they will trust.

How would you feel if, for some reason beyond your control, your lawfully owned property failed to show you as the registered owner in the registry that doesn't even exist? They would have confiscated it (again, illegally) and you would spend months and possibly hundreds of dollars to get it back. It happens far too frequently. Most folks report that the legal costs easily exceed the value of the firearm, they give up the fight, and they never get it back. How would you feel? Still feel like you were treated courteously and professionally?

Would you consider your encounter with a mugger was "not bad" as long as he was polite and friendly?

Always comply, but refuse consent every time it is appropriate. How you will know when it is appropriate depends on your knowledge of your rights.
.

[flyingjunkie]

That may be, but....

The U.S. Supreme Court says otherwise. They can get all the calls they want, and they aren't obligated to do squat.

"Arrived on scene, saw nobody doing anything illegal, departed scene."

And just because they ask doesn't mean it has to be complied with.

Their problem is not necessarily my problem.

Did they have RAS that a crime was being committed? That you were suspected of such? Carrying a firearm in and of itself is not illegal. Did they have any reason to believe that you did not possess an LTCF? If not, asking for your LTCF was an illegal search.

The license plate on the truck was in plain view for all the world to see. The firearm's serial number, however, was not.

Can't argue with the preceding. OP should file a written complaint with the PPD, with an info copy to his State Representative.

^^^^This. I love how you always break things down point by point Stat! You always make sure every point is addressed and you always hit the nail on the head.

[internet troll]

Since when does it have to take 30 minutes to say "I will comply with your demand but I DO NOT give my consent to your seizure and search of my property. Then follow up as suggested.

The problem with going along for the sake of convenience is that every time we allow our rights to be violated we send the subtle message that it's OK. If everyone simply refused consent at each opportunity we wouldn't be having a lot of these issues now.

Standing up for our rights absolutely does not have to be a bloody or nightmarish scenario, as some would have you believe. You can be every bit as courteous and professional as they are. Quite likely, they have just been misinformed or poorly trained. This is why it's important to take the issue up with their superiors, as that is probably the only source they will trust.

How would you feel if, for some reason beyond your control, your lawfully owned property failed to show you as the registered owner in the registry that doesn't even exist? They would have confiscated it (again, illegally) and you would spend months and possibly hundreds of dollars to get it back. It happens far too frequently. Most folks report that the legal costs easily exceed the value of the firearm, they give up the fight, and they never get it back. How would you feel? Still feel like you were treated courteously and professionally?

Would you consider your encounter with a mugger was "not bad" as long as he was polite and friendly?

Always comply, but refuse consent every time it is appropriate. How you will know when it is appropriate depends on your knowledge of your rights.
.

Spot on again^^^^^^^

You have the right to comply if you wish, but every time someone does it is the same as saying my rights don't really matter that much. imo

[SouthPhilly]

So you're ok with them raping your rights, as long as they are polite and chit-chat with you while doing it? Noted.

Did I say I was okay with it? I don't recall typing that here anywhere. I was pointing out the overall experience wasn't as hostile and inappropriate as many come to find.

Am I okay with the wrongdoing? No. What should I do? Be like you? Start yelling out HR's, chapters and subsections and stomp my feet? Turn the 90 second process into an hour or so?

Your right, I shouldv'e turned my back on them, started shouting out legal chapters/subsections of my rights, to no benefit. Let them call back up, create a huge ordeal, hope they don't try and spite me and wrongfully detain me on some bullshit they make up, waste my entire day just because and then maybe you'd donate the few thousand so I can lawyer up against the city. Noted

I would've had a problem with a seizure of my weapon, them taking it away, asking to search my truck or me, etc. I've never been confronted by LE while carrying or about carrying. I heard the dispatcher ask them for a serial and model info, so I thought it was something procedure. I simply didn't know better. I didn't view it as a seizure, they slid it from the holster to see the serial and slid it back into the holster. I didn't know they weren't allowed to obtain the serial.

[SouthPhilly]

Since when does it have to take 30 minutes to say "I will comply with your demand but I DO NOT give my consent to your seizure and search of my property. Then follow up as suggested.

The problem with going along for the sake of convenience is that every time we allow our rights to be violated we send the subtle message that it's OK. If everyone simply refused consent at each opportunity we wouldn't be having a lot of these issues now.

Standing up for our rights absolutely does not have to be a bloody or nightmarish scenario, as some would have you believe. You can be every bit as courteous and professional as they are. Quite likely, they have just been misinformed or poorly trained. This is why it's important to take the issue up with their superiors, as that is probably the only source they will trust.

How would you feel if, for some reason beyond your control, your lawfully owned property failed to show you as the registered owner in the registry that doesn't even exist? They would have confiscated it (again, illegally) and you would spend months and possibly hundreds of dollars to get it back. It happens far too frequently. Most folks report that the legal costs easily exceed the value of the firearm, they give up the fight, and they never get it back. How would you feel? Still feel like you were treated courteously and professionally?

Would you consider your encounter with a mugger was "not bad" as long as he was polite and friendly?

Always comply, but refuse consent every time it is appropriate. How you will know when it is appropriate depends on your knowledge of your rights.
.

I admit I didn't know my rights in that aspect as far as them obtaining a serial #. They didn't unload the weapon or anything, they did it to obtain the serial #, which I didn't know wasn't something they have a right to.

I'll chalk it up to a learning experience, since I now know. Just after hearing their radio and the dispatcher ask them for a serial and model, I thought it was something required in the situation. Now I know.

[Curmudgeon]

I admit I didn't know my rights in that aspect as far as them obtaining a serial #. They didn't unload the weapon or anything, they did it to obtain the serial #, which I didn't know wasn't something they have a right to.

I'll chalk it up to a learning experience, since I now know. Just after hearing their radio and the dispatcher ask them for a serial and model, I thought it was something required in the situation. Now I know.

In addition to being a learning opportunity regarding rights and police interactions, perhaps we can talk about the utility of carrying a voice recorder, or at least setting up your cell phone for audio recording.

In a situation like this, It can be very helpful to be able to review the recording and have some certainty about what was said and when and by whom. It is also rather valuable to be able to augment any complaint with an audio record, rather than an I said/he said.

It sounds as though it would be worthwhile to follow-up on this. Your Police Dept may be well aware of the laws and your rights, and by asking politely were able to obtain your consent, taking advantage of your lack of knowledge as well as your desire to cooperate.

And they may not be aware. This might not be an opportunity for a formal complaint, but it still sounds like a great opportunity for a conversation. No harm in that, and you can all get to know each other.
.

[SouthPhilly]

In addition to being a learning opportunity regarding rights and police interactions, perhaps we can talk about the utility of carrying a voice recorder, or at least setting up your cell phone for audio recording.

In a situation like this, It can be very helpful to be able to review the recording and have some certainty about what was said and when and by whom. It is also rather valuable to be able to augment any complaint with an audio record, rather than an I said/he said.

It sounds as though it would be worthwhile to follow-up on this. Your Police Dept may be well aware of the laws and your rights, and by asking politely were able to obtain your consent, taking advantage of your lack of knowledge as well as your desire to cooperate.

And they may not be aware. This might not be an opportunity for a formal complaint, but it still sounds like a great opportunity for a conversation. No harm in that, and you can all get to know each other.
.

I know 90% of them lol, eight cops in the family and three federal air-marshalls. I still think most of them are assholes though, so no bias haha.

I always had the 'never me' mentality, now I'll look into a voice recorder. Any recommendations on something clear/audible with good range and small?

[Curmudgeon]

I use this one...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Olympus-VN-5...item3f1fd88b4e


...but most anything by Olympus or Sony (for example) should be fine. You might want to make sure it can be connected to your PC, typically via USB cable. This allows to to transfer a file and save it.

The sound quality, sensitivit0y, and clarity are incredible. You ought to be able to find something for $30 or less. Avoid paying extra for too much memory. There's really no point in having 100 hours of record time if the batteries are only good for, say, 30 hours.

[Brillfan]

I'm wondering if these two clowns also ran the VIN of your vehicle. For their own safety, as always.

Once again, the citizen is obeying the law, and Philthy PD decides to behave otherwise.

At least the OP wasn't thrown to the ground, had a foot slammed onto the back of his neck, tazed and handcuffed, all while some badged asshat has a gun pointed at his head. I fear that it won't be long until we read of an incident like this in the "City of Brotherly Love".

Some "brothers"!