Smokless Powder Storage Laws

[DennisPA]

Ok I need some help. I've looked thru google and this forum and I can't fine the exact PA laws on smokeless powder storage. Here's the deal I'm working on getting my type 3 FFL and that opens me up to having a vist from ATF. So I want to make sure I have all me ducks in a row. Can anyone point me to the smokeless powder storage laws?
I've found personal accounts of people building wooden boxes with 1" thick sides and then a thin blow out panel but I would like to read the actual law.

[tl_3237]

I'm unaware of any statutory specifications for smokeless powder. I would suspect that the local fire codes would be the prevailing documents - contact your local fire dept or code enforcement officer.

Localities may have adopted NFPA 495. You can see the 1996 edition at:
http://www.saami.org/specifications_...ess_Powder.pdf

Or the 2010 edition , for a price, at:
http://www.nfpa.org/aboutthecodes/Ab...asp?DocNum=495

[dk99358]

Smokeless isn't an explosive. I'm not aware of any state laws, but there could be some local ones. And businesses often run into insurance requirements. Every reloader I know just keeps it on a shelf.

The thin wall deal is so one side can give without building pressure if a fire does start.

Dale

[knight0334]

Generally smokeless powder doesn't have a storage regulations unless there is a local code. It isn't an explosive, it is a propellent. For the most part smokeless is less dangerous if it is kept where it can just burn. If you confine it, it will burn at an explosive rate. With smokeless, the storage is more for keeping heat away than anything. Recommended storage units usually are vented to keep it from burning under pressure(which becomes explosive).

Blackpowder does for sure. Not only in the storage unit's construction, but also quantities. It is an explosive. If you store it openly it can burn at a very fast rate, even beyond what confined smokeless will burn. But in a confined area it burns much slower.

[gnbrotz]

Generally smokeless powder doesn't have a storage regulations unless there is a local code.

Which would be nullified by preemption (IMO).

(a) General rule.--No county, municipality or township may in any manner regulate the lawful ownership, possession, transfer or transportation of firearms, ammunition or ammunition components when carried or transported for purposes not prohibited by the laws of this Commonwealth.
(a.1) No right of action.--
(1) No political subdivision may bring or maintain an action at law or in equity against any firearms or ammunition manufacturer, trade association or dealer for damages, abatement, injunctive relief or any other relief or remedy resulting from or relating to either the lawful design or manufacture of firearms or ammunition or the lawful marketing or sale of firearms or ammunition to the public.
(2) Nothing in this subsection shall be construed to prohibit a political subdivision from bringing or maintaining an action against a firearms or ammunition manufacturer or dealer for breach of contract or warranty as to firearms or ammunition purchased by the political subdivision.
(b) Definitions.--As used in this section, the following words and phrases shall have the meanings given to them in this subsection:
"Dealer." The term shall include any person engaged in the business of selling at wholesale or retail a firearm or ammunition.
"Firearms." This term shall have the meaning given to it in section 5515 (relating to prohibiting of paramilitary training) but shall not include air rifles as that term is defined in section 6304 ( relating to sale and use of air rifles).
"Political subdivision." The term shall include any home rule charter municipality, county, city, borough, incorporated town, township or school district.

[knight0334]

Which would be nullified by preemption (IMO).

Fire codes really aren't preempted. Which commercial storage of smokeless could fall under fire code regulations.

[gnbrotz]

Fire codes really aren't preempted. Which commercial storage of smokeless could fall under fire code regulations.

Why not? It says "in any manner". Or is it your position that powder storage couldn't be regulated for individuals, but would be legal for commercial enterprises?

[knight0334]

Why not? It says "in any manner". Or is it your position that powder storage couldn't be regulated for individuals, but would be legal for commercial enterprises?

I've yet to see a firecode that was stronger than a state law be shot down.

PA's preemption doesn't completely prohibit municipalities from making regulations pertaining to guns, ammo, carrying, etc, etc. In Minich v Jefferson County 2007 it was ruled that counties can enact such ordinances so long as they dont exceed state law. Municipalities can also enact such ordinances when give certain powers by the general assembly. Counties have the authority under Section 509(a) of the County Code in the matters of public safety.

A county ordinance regulating powder storage under the pretenses of the fire codes would certainly withstand challenge, whether commercial or private.

My reference to commercial storage is due to commercial buildings are typically regulated with stricter firecodes than residential.

[Grumpa72]

After watching this entire video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SlOX...ature=youtu.be - on what happens to ammo in a fire, I stopped worrying about the few containers of gun powder that I keep. This is a good video in which SAAMI exposes hundreds, thousands, and even tens of thousands of rounds to fire in various configurations. They even have a firefighter standing near a burning pallet in which brass and bullets are coming out. It is a very educational video.

I don't worry about my gun powder and ammo storage but I do live in an area serviced by volunteer firefighters and I wonder what their level of training is relative to entering a building with gun powder. Fwiw, my son-in-law was worried about it so I took a couple of tablespoons of commercial smokeless powder, poured in on the driveway and, just for effect, had my son-in-law stand back. Hilarious because you get a small fire with minimal smoke and certainly no explosion or even hint of one.

[Mr_Gixxer]

After watching this entire video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SlOX...ature=youtu.be - on what happens to ammo in a fire, I stopped worrying about the few containers of gun powder that I keep. This is a good video in which SAAMI exposes hundreds, thousands, and even tens of thousands of rounds to fire in various configurations. They even have a firefighter standing near a burning pallet in which brass and bullets are coming out. It is a very educational video.

I don't worry about my gun powder and ammo storage but I do live in an area serviced by volunteer firefighters and I wonder what their level of training is relative to entering a building with gun powder. Fwiw, my son-in-law was worried about it so I took a couple of tablespoons of commercial smokeless powder, poured in on the driveway and, just for effect, had my son-in-law stand back. Hilarious because you get a small fire with minimal smoke and certainly no explosion or even hint of one.

That is an AMAZING video. I am a firefighter and this is something I've never thought about although my mind is at ease now. The only concerns I would have as a firefighter though would be loaded firearms when entering a burning building or around a burning vehicle.