Second Ammendement Rights Taken Away

**Chazman321** · October 8th, 2012, 12:59 AM

Originally Posted by Glock_23

I have seen FAR worse judgement from other posters to this forum on other threads.. Most posters BASH the OP, I simply gave my personal insight to 302 patients...

Also, did you not read the first bullet? The person is either too YOUNG (etc 15) to realize what they are doing, or why they need the involuntary commitment?

And also that "-Each 302 had a DAMN GOOD reason to get treatment, not that they had bad parents and they mistreated them and just "threw them" into the 302" MOST kids then blame their parents for their 302 and NOT their behavior.

Apparently YOU need to read other folks posts before you respond with your verbal hogworsh.

How much experience have YOU had with psych patients to give ANY say in the matter???

Anyone here a P-doc that can attest? Anyone on the forums work for Western Psych?

Well, out of the 40+ people I have 302'd myself, only two were ever violent towards anyone, and never to me. Getting strapped to a gurney can make anyone nervous. Then again, you were an EMT for 6 years and I have been one for 12 years (since I was 16) as well as being a social worker in a heavily overburdened mental health system, so I probably know nothing about psych patients. Maybe that's why I'm turning 29 in December and already am starting on my Friar Tuck bald spot and grey hairs... lol

OP, you aren't the only one to ask these questions, they come up often. Click here:
http://forum.pafoa.org/pennsylvania-...ml#post2139698
And look over the information. If you need more help, send me a personal message (PM), and I will be glad to walk you through the process...

-Chaz

**JonEMTP** · October 8th, 2012, 02:31 AM

Originally Posted by Glock_23

...And also that "-Each 302 had a DAMN GOOD reason to get treatment, not that they had bad parents and they mistreated them and just "threw them" into the 302" MOST kids then blame their parents for their 302 and NOT their behavior.

I'm not a mental health worker, but I've been in EMS for 11 years. I've seen my share of 302's. Some of them are for good reasons. Some of them are jokes. I've seen a few that presented clear intent and plan to do harm to self/others. I've seen plenty that were MUCH less substantial. I've seen an autistic teenager 302'd because their parents "couldn't take it anymore", and I've seen cases where the kid did something stupid as a cry for attention.

Knowing what I do about both sides of the 302 and guns topic, I find it disturbing how easy it is to take away someone's rights through a 302, and how often the system is used because the involved parties (PD/ED/etc) are afraid of liability.

To the OP - First, an apology - sorry you had to deal with our internal forum drama. Second - talk to GunLawyer. He's done this successfully, and is local(ish). Third - stick around and keep us posted on how things work out. Good luck!

**Gun** · October 8th, 2012, 05:42 AM

Originally Posted by Glock_23

I obviously don't know you but I was an EMT for 6 years and had the displeasure of taking 302's to the ER on the daily...

So, OP, why do you want that pistol again?

Such a condescending question based on your experience as a professional transporter. When you have PhD after your name, please evaluate the person in question, in the proper fashion.

Victoria, the only post you need to read is post #15, by GunLawyer001.

Beginning to see why some of the old timers on this forum don't post anymore.

**Greywolf** · October 8th, 2012, 06:05 AM

Originally Posted by mazzefr

All of which qualify as more than just "unhappy" IMHO. I'm not saying she's in denial; I don't know her. Just a bit cavalier about the circumstance.

Since you know nothing about her and next to nothing about the circumstances, you have no basis on which to rest this judgment. ALL we know is that she was 15 at the time of the 302, and that she is an adult now. That could mean the 302 was as little as three years ago, or it could mean it was ten, fifteen or twenty years ago. WE DON'T KNOW.

And it's none of our business. She asked if there's a way to regain her rights. GunLawyer has replied that there is. As expected, the process would include someone with a lot more knowledge of the circumstances, past and present, than we have making a determination of whether or not her rights should be restored.

That's the answer she needs. She does NOT need a bunch of know-nothings sitting in judgment of her with ZERO knowledge of her or the facts of the situation.

**Greywolf** · October 8th, 2012, 06:24 AM

Originally Posted by JonEMTP

Knowing what I do about both sides of the 302 and guns topic, I find it disturbing how easy it is to take away someone's rights through a 302, and how often the system is used because the involved parties (PD/ED/etc) are afraid of liability.

Frankly, having practiced in another state, I find it both surprising and alarming that in Pennsylvania merely being brought in for an evaluation can result in a permanent loss of rights. That's different from and more restrictive than Federal law. The instructions for the mental health question on the BATFE Form 4473 don't say that.

http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf

The Feds don't prohibit unless the determination of being a danger to the self or others is by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority. The 4473 instructions clearly state that the term "committed" does NOT include a person who was in a mental institution for observation (i.e. evaluation).

Also note that Federal law specifically provides that the person's rights are restored if the commitment has been expunged OR if the person has been fully released or discharged from all mandatory treatment, supervision or monitoring.

I know that where I practiced an involuntary 3-day or 7-day evaluation was not considered to be "committed for treatment" and would not be treated as a disqualifier unless the result of the evaluation was a long-term commitment for treatment. Any such long-term commitment would have to be ordered by a court; no single doctor, psychiatrist, police officer, or EMT could possibly commit anyone for long-term treatment single-handed.

**flyingjunkie** · October 8th, 2012, 06:45 AM

I can't help but think that, at this point, this thread needs shut down. The OP asked a question and, after a little drama stirred up by Glock_23, her question got answered. There really isn't much reason to keep this going as it's just going to have more people sticking their opinions in about how the feel about 302s. This discussion wasn't supposed to be about what we think about 302s or if they should get their rights back or anything like that; It was simply the OP asking if there was a way to do it or not. The OP could have been admitted under the "off the cuff" concept or she could have and still could be a raving lunatic. Either way, none of that applies here. She asked for a place to start a difficult process and now she has that. There are plenty of people that she's going to have to interact with at this point who are going to try to vet her to make sure that, if she is able to get her rights restored, she and the people around her are going to be safe. At the end of the day, that's why they get paid.

**PennsyPlinker** · October 8th, 2012, 07:19 AM

When a person comes on this board to ask a question, there are any number of people who can give a reasonable and helpful answer. It does not need to go further than that. This board is not set up to make value judgments on a person's desire to have their rights restored. That is what "The System" is for. While it is not always out of line to express an opinion, it IS out of line to spew vitriol for page after page.