Transfer Scenario Question

[KJ3030]

Ok, purely hypothetical (really, I swear!) question - As I understand it, it is legal for a friend to loan you a handgun as long as you have a LTCF. So, your friend loans you a handgun and unexpectedly dies of a heart attack or car accident or whatever while his handgun is in your possession. Say there's no wife or kids, would there be any way to legally transfer the gun into your name?

[tl_3237]

Ok, purely hypothetical (really, I swear!) question - As I understand it, it is legal for a friend to loan you a handgun as long as you have a LTCF. So, your friend loans you a handgun and unexpectedly dies of a heart attack or car accident or whatever while his handgun is in your possession. Say there's no wife or kids, would there be any way to legally transfer the gun into your name?

Immediately upon his death the handgun, and all other property of which he died possessed owning, passes to his estate as an asset. Only legal way to transfer the gun to you is with the cooperation of the estate (executor) as the transferor. Doesn't matter whether there are beneficiaries or not.

[knight0334]

Taking ownership of the gun in such manner would be theft from the estate or heirs.

The estate would have a representative known as the executor. Until an executor is named/appointed the next closest living kin holds temporary, or permanent, rights. Kinship isn't limited to wife and/or kids. Without wife/kids, the next heir is the parents of the deceased, then siblings/niece/nephew, then grandparents/grandkids, then aunts/uncles/cousins. If there are absolutely no living kin left, the Commonwealth becomes the heir.

Below, "issue" means children of the deceased. If there is a surviving spouse and children, she gets the first $30K + 1/2 of the estate after that - the kids get the other 1/2. If no wife or kids, then go to 20 Pa.C.S.A. § 2103.

If there is a will naming certain beneficiaries - it generally trumps all of the above. Except that a spouse and a child of the can contest it to some degree.

20 Pa.C.S.A. § 2102

The intestate share of a decedent's surviving spouse is:

(1) If there is no surviving issue or parent of the decedent, the entire intestate estate.

(2) If there is no surviving issue of the decedent but he is survived by a parent or parents, the first $30,000 plus one-half of the balance of the intestate estate. Notwithstanding the foregoing, in the case of a decedent who died as a result of the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, a surviving spouse shall be entitled to 100% of any compensation award paid pursuant to the Air Transportation Safety and System Stabilization Act (Public Law 107-42, 115 Stat. 230). [FN1]

(3) If there are surviving issue of the decedent all of whom are issue of the surviving spouse also, the first $30,000 plus one-half of the balance of the intestate estate.

(4) If there are surviving issue of the decedent one or more of whom are not issue of the surviving spouse, one-half of the intestate estate.

(5) In case of partial intestacy any property received by the surviving spouse under the will shall satisfy pro tanto the $30,000 allowance under paragraphs (2) and (3).

20 Pa.C.S.A. § 2103

The share of the estate, if any, to which the surviving spouse is not entitled, and the entire estate if there is no surviving spouse, shall pass in the following order:

(1) Issue.--To the issue of the decedent.

(2) Parents.--If no issue survives the decedent, then to the parents or parent of the decedent.

(3) Brothers, sisters, or their issue.--If no parent survives the decedent, then to the issue of each of the decedent's parents.

(4) Grandparents.--If no issue of either of the decedent's parents but at least one grandparent survives the decedent, then half to the paternal grandparents or grandparent, or if both are dead, to the children of each of them and the children of the deceased children of each of them, and half to the maternal grandparents or grandparent, or if both are dead to the children of each of them and the children of the deceased children of each of them. If both of the paternal grandparents or both of the maternal grandparents are dead leaving no child or grandchild to survive the decedent, the half which would have passed to them or to their children and grandchildren shall be added to the half passing to the grandparents or grandparent or to their children and grandchildren on the other side.

(5) Uncles, aunts and their children, and grandchildren.--If no grandparent survives the decedent, then to the uncles and aunts and the children and grandchildren of deceased uncles and aunts of the decedent as provided in section 2104(1) (relating to taking in different degrees).

(6) Commonwealth.--In default of all persons hereinbefore described, then to the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.

[renalp]

Whoa, hey, slow down there a dern minnit!

I'm no lawyer, but I can't see how the loaned firearm becomes a possession of the decease (or his estate), when ownership was never transferred.

To put it in perspective, can the recipient of the loaned firearm legally sell it? If not, then it doesn't belong to him, so how can his estate legally dispose of it?

[tl_3237]

Ok, purely hypothetical (really, I swear!) question - As I understand it, it is legal for a friend to loan you a handgun as long as you have a LTCF. So, your friend loans you a handgun and unexpectedly dies of a heart attack or car accident or whatever while his handgun is in your possession. Say there's no wife or kids, would there be any way to legally transfer the gun into your name?

Whoa, hey, slow down there a dern minnit!

I'm no lawyer, but I can't see how the loaned firearm becomes a possession of the decease (or his estate), when ownership was never transferred.

To put it in perspective, can the recipient of the loaned firearm legally sell it? If not, then it doesn't belong to him, so how can his estate legally dispose of it?

The OP had the 'friend' loaning the firearm so the 'friend' was the owner. When he (the 'friend') dies his estate then assumes ownership - not the borrower. The borrower never was the owner. You've got the wrong person dying.

[renalp]

The OP had the 'friend' loaning the firearm so the 'friend' was the owner. When he (the 'friend') dies his estate then assumes ownership - not the borrower. The borrower never was the owner. You've got the wrong person dying.

Duh. Got it now.

[KJ3030]

So the executor of the estate of the now dead friend could legally transfer the gun to the borrower? But, is under no legal obligation to do so. Could the executor just keep the gun for himself? How would he go about transferring it to himself? As the gun belongs to the estate of the deceased, not the executor of the estate, correct? I assume then also, that the executor just just decide to have the gun destroyed or sold to anyone he wished to sell it to if he was so inclined, right? This is all assuming there is no will giving specific instructions.

[QuackXP]

I don't see how it being a firearm makes it different from any other piece of property other than it has to be transferred. This would make it similar to a vehicle.

If you borrowed your buddies car and he dies. It's not your car, the estate could give the car to you and transfer the title.

[tl_3237]

So the executor of the estate of the now dead friend could legally transfer the gun to the borrower? But, is under no legal obligation to do so. Could the executor just keep the gun for himself? How would he go about transferring it to himself? As the gun belongs to the estate of the deceased, not the executor of the estate, correct? I assume then also, that the executor just just decide to have the gun destroyed or sold to anyone he wished to sell it to if he was so inclined, right? This is all assuming there is no will giving specific instructions.

The executor must distribute the estate, as best as possible, according to the will (if any) or intestate provisions of the state (if no will) after all legal debts have been discharged. If the will specifically bequeaths the gun to a specific beneficiary then the executor is duty bound to fulfill that wish if at all possible. Lacking specific direction of the decedent, the beneficiaries can agree on a specific recipient of the gun or, lacking such direction, the gun is sold with the proceeds added to the estate assets or given to a beneficiary as part of their share of the estate distribution - both at the executor's option.

The executor cannot just destroy the gun since it has value. As such he must dispose of it in exchange for reasonable value.

The estate assets, including the gun, do not belong to the executor but he does have a claim for a % of the assets as a fee for his service if he so asserts it (20 Pa CS § 3537). If noone wants the gun, he can offset his fee by the value of the gun and take it for himself.

Transfer of the handgun to whomever is to be the recipient is done like any other private transfer at an FFL with the executor being the transferor and the recipient the transferee . If the recipient is a beneficiary then, depending on state laws, using an FFL is executor's option but recommended. For a Pa estate no FFL is required for beneficiaries from Pa or NJ.