5.56 vs. 7.62x39

[Sniper061]

My pure personal opinion on the matter but every time I've seen someone hit with a 5.56 round, they tend to go down pretty fast. I have no problems with it.

[7998]

Me, personally: AR-15 vs. AK-47 for SHTF. That's what I'm debating internally.

Well that's even easier to answer. AK, if you do go with an AR buy 2 so when one jams or breaks you have a back-up.
Field stripping is 5 parts
Dust cover
Spring
Bolt carrier
Bolt
Oh wait that's only 4.
But you only need to clean it after 4-5,000 rounds.
You could load the x39 with black powder if you had to
(It's been done, can't find the video,)
You can shoot any kind of ammo, so lets say you find a stash of lacquer cased ammo. The AK will eat it, with the AR you'll have to pass.

[Valorius]

My feeling on the "what rifle to pick for SHTF" debate: In an Eastern Bloc country i'd say go with an AK-74. In the West (including the US), go with an AR. In the third world, go with an Ak-47.

Or if you're made of money, an FN Five SeveN and P90 combo in 5.7x28mm works well world wide.

[Wilson Guy]

I recently ordered a SBR with a 10.2 inch barrel and a suppressor. My first foray into a tax stamp weapon. I was convinced that I would get a 5.56 upper. However, I did a lot of "internet" research and spoke to some folks that I trust and then went in a completely different direction. The 300 blackout. I did this because a 10.2 inch barrel really cut the velocity of 5.56. I already have a 16 inch 5.56 so I figured "why not try something different?" The more I research the 300 round the more I like it. I can use my old .223 cases, my mags., etc. I can make subsonic ammo for it for home defense purposes that will hit like a .45 acp and essentially all I'll hear is the cycling of the weapon.

Not trying to get the thread "off target". Just seems to me that barrel length has a lot to do with the effectiveness of 5.56 loads. The shorter you go the less effective it is would appear to be the general consensus.

[Tim Ault]

Not trying to get the thread "off target". Just seems to me that barrel length has a lot to do with the effectiveness of 5.56 loads. The shorter you go the less effective it is would appear to be the general consensus.

This is exactly right! Out of the once standard 20" barrel the 223 bullet be it the older 55 gr or the now 62 gr. worked and wounded as designed With the vel. being 3200 and 3000 fps respectively . But now the same bullets are being shot from 14.5-16" as common Vel. dropped way off and so did the effectiveness of the bullet . From My reloading manual in a 14" Single shot barrel which is what you'd get from a 14.5 AR the max vel. for a 55 gr is only 2600 fps . A 62 gr is 2515 fps. and a 70 gr is only 2400 fps. A guess on the 77 gr SMK would be 2370 fps.( again not real impressive dont ya think) Now these are all at the muzzle . Take a guess what they would be at 100-200 yd distant. Quite a bit lower and a far cry from what they were originally designed for. As I said in the beginning of this thread Will it wound and kill ? Sure But not near as effectively . Again take the vel. back up were it was designed for the bullets to act as designed to be and its a a different story. Would you go out hunting deer if you down loaded your 30/30, 308 or whatever 400-500 fps? I wouldnt. Not with out matching a proper bullet to the vel. which is what the military should have done already but didnt. The AR/.556 is a good combo but the bullet design is flawed for the current use in the short barreled M4

[Valorius]

Mk262 77gr 5.56mm OTM reliably fragments at velocities as low as 2100fps....which makes it perfect for 10.5" carbines. This round is devastating in soft tissue, even from short barreled guns.

Also, expanding type rounds such as the Barnes TSX solid copper hollowpoint behave as a more conventional JHP does, and will also work at much lower velocities than M855. Really, i rather suspect that at home defense ranges, plain ole' M193 55gr still fragments just about 100% of the time.

It was the combo of slower 62gr M855 and 10.5" carbines that was not a successful one, from all that i've read and seen on the topic.

To me the real question is why the Army and USMC have switched to such short barreled carbines as general issue weapons to begin with. I was in a mech Infantry unit and used M-16A1's, A2's and M-14s, and honestly i never felt that they were too long.

[Gun]

I know, I know, it's been asked a billion times, but I want to ask a little more specific question than just "which is better."

Your mission dictates your tools, and there is overlap.

[RXM]

Me, personally: AR-15 vs. AK-47 for SHTF. That's what I'm debating internally.

There are multiple SHTF scenarios but IMO, the realistic one would be civil unrest due to either natural disaster or Obama getting re-elected

Your engagements will be at 50 yards or less if you're in an urban setting. If you're planning on shooting further than that, you're going to have a lot of explaining to do when order is restored. That is, unless you have well connected friends within the police department (e.g., Philly's finest).

I would envision that most of us would hunker down and stay indoors defending our home against looters or other criminals.

With that being said, a 7.62 round would be more effective than a 5.56. Additionally, there is an advantage with cost of the 7.62x39 over the 5.56. Some may argue that you can carry more 5.56 than 7.62 and that's completely true. But how many of us are going to go mobile and leave our homes?

Personally, I don't own any AKs and I don't knock anyone that would use it as their go to gun. Any person that enters my house will be met with a wall of lead, plain and simple.

At a distance of 5 yards (typical distance inside the home), two to the chest and one to the head from either weapon should put a person down.

[animalmother85]

Just curious; who here has actually seen the damage that any of the bullets stated in this thread have done to human tissue? There's allot of hypotheticals being thrown around about barrel length, velocity, and bullet design. The biggest factor is bullet design.


Can anyone guess what the speed of this bullet was at the muzzle?

[EvoRich]

I can't decide between the two. With proper ammo, I think they both will get the job done equally as well. For instance, a 5.56 round loaded with something like Barnes TSX bullets, vs a plain FMJ 7.62x39, the 5.56 will have an advantage. Where as a good expanding round in x39 vs a standard non-fragmenting 5.56 or .223 round, the x39 has the upper hand.

Not all 5.56/.223 FMJ rounds are created equal. They don't all fragment. Some will stay intact. It's the OTM or FMJ with a canular that are the fragmenting rounds. The canular is a weak spot where it allows for the FMJ bullet to break. Better, yet are the 5.56 rounds designed to expand like the Barnes TSX bullets or some of the "duty" rounds designed for law enforcement. Then you get into barrier blind and non-barrier blind rounds and so on. You can get so into it in make your head hurt.

7.62x39 is much more simple. Pick a good round designed for hunting medium game, and you'll likely to have good results.

7.62x39 will undoubtedly has more penetration than a fragmenting 5.56, however, the 5.56 will cause more internal damages.

I keep my AR loaded with 75gr TAP as "indoor ammo" as it's one of the top performing non-barrier blind rounds in 5.56/.223 available. For outdoor use, I've collected some Mk318 62gr 5.56 as it's barrier blind and will perform better at distance in my 1:9 barrel (there are better, yet MUCH more expensive barrier blind options, such as the TSX rounds). And I still believe that if the velocity is right, and used within it's limits, M193 will work just fine. If you're looking to take out a threat within 25 yards, which most home defensive situations would be well within, M193 will work. M193 needs maximum velocity to work correctly. But at self defense distance, 25 yards and in, M193 should still work even out of an SBR.

I keep my AK loaded with Russian FMJ rounds. Nothing special at all. However, I will eventually start loading it with an expanding soft point round sometime or another.

Within the home, I think 5.56 has the upper hand. If you need to defeat heavy armor or more importantly, a barrier, the 7.62x39 is a clear winner due to it's mass. For instance a 7.62x39 will perform better through a wall, glass, etc vs a 5.56.... if that's what you're looking for, hence the option between barrier and non-barrier blind rounds. It's a toss up between the two, to be perfectly honest. Somebody shot with either is going to have a very bad day.

http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19881

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