LTCF Montco/Pottstown

[fortysix]

So I was going to apply for the LTCF today. I have been reading here for a long time, and got the jist of how it works. Went to the sheriff's site, downloaded and printed the forms, read the directions, read the underlying statutes, was ready.

Got to Pottstown Borough Hall to turn in the police check form, and was surprised by the ridiculous hoops. First you have to pay a 10$ *fee*, then go out of the building, around to the other side to the police office, and hand in your receipt for the 10$, along with the form. Then, they tell you to wait 7-10 days, they will mail the form to Norristown (the county sheriff's office), and then you call the sheriff's office every day until they say they received the form, then you can go down there and hand in your application (and fee!). This is nothing like what the county sheriff specifies on the county sheriff's website, and the fee is above what the state specifies are the maximum fees for the process.

Anyone know what the *fee* is for? I got a refund for my 10$ and walked out without giving them my form. This is ridiculous and I'd rather just go make the sheriff do the work instead and wait the 45 days.

Also as a second question, I don't see anyplace on the statute that permits the requirement to provide references and their information. The privacy portion of the section specifically forbids all involved from disclosing any information provided during the process, which would make them calling your references not legal (i.e. they are disclosing to those references that you are applying). Is this a requirement that can be fought, or will I end up just getting rejected endlessly?

[Sniper061]

I can't answer the second part of your question but as to the first part, that is the first I've heard of a city hall providing help with getting your LTCF. I just went to the county sheriff office in person and took care of it and that would be my suggestion to you as well. I would assume the $10 fee is for their role in mailing/handling the form.

[Jorg Schlagzeuger]

Anyone know what the *fee* is for? I got a refund for my 10$ and walked out without giving them my form. This is ridiculous and I'd rather just go make the sheriff do the work instead and wait the 45 days.

From what I understand, once upon a time some sheriff's offices used to require a local "police check card" check that was often provided for a fee of $10. This is outside of the (legitimate) "system" though, and I commend you for getting the cash back and walking.

I did my Montco application in Norristown itself - I was in & out in about 45 minutes with LTCF in hand, so I second the idea of heading to the county seat to take care of this. Maybe the $10 is some kind of "courier" fee since you're working through a satellite office? (By no means do I see that as justification.)

IANAL

[BenP]

The second part (references) is part of the psp form and the Montco sheriff doesn't call them.

The local police charging for the check card is relatively new thing. I didn't have to pay a fee for mine. Ridley township in Delaware county also charges for a police check and they don't do the police check card.

[fortysix]

The second part (references) is part of the psp form and the Montco sheriff doesn't call them.

The local police charging for the check card is relatively new thing. I didn't have to pay a fee for mine. Ridley township in Delaware county also charges for a police check and they don't do the police check card.

That's what I was getting at; if I do not complete that section on references, or enter names and phone numbers that don't exist, are either of those options, or am I required to assist them in violating the section on confidentiality? For that matter, the section listing employer also appears to violate the confidentiality, i.e. if they contact my employer, my confidentiality will be violated, so why ask for it (and what if I leave it blank or enter unemployed or self-employed or nonsense?).

As well, in the box *photograph if required*, do I have to get a photo and glue it on there? I don't see anything on my county sheriff's site discussing it one way or another, except that they ask you to *complete* the application. Does providing a photo complete the application?

[twency]

That's what I was getting at; if I do not complete that section on references, or enter names and phone numbers that don't exist, are either of those options, or am I required to assist them in violating the section on confidentiality? For that matter, the section listing employer also appears to violate the confidentiality, i.e. if they contact my employer, my confidentiality will be violated, so why ask for it (and what if I leave it blank or enter unemployed or self-employed or nonsense?).

As well, in the box *photograph if required*, do I have to get a photo and glue it on there? I don't see anything on my county sheriff's site discussing it one way or another, except that they ask you to *complete* the application. Does providing a photo complete the application?

I have argued in the past that an applicant has no legal obligation to provide references and employer information. Whether or not that's a battle you want to try to fight is up to you.

There's nothing in the Uniform Firearm Act which would permit the denial of a license to carry firearms based on a person being unemployed. However it is a crime to lie on the license, so you absolutely should not enter any false information.

The (arguable) legal justification for requiring references (and employer info) is that "The form may contain provisions, not exceeding one page, to assure compliance with this section." Exactly what those provisions are, and what weight they hold, is not spelled out by statute (except for requiring that certain minimal information be present on the form and that the form may not exceed one page).

I agree that if the sheriff or another person contacts your references based on the application, then they are violating the confidentiality provision. Whether or not that would stop them from doing so, and/or whether or not you could get a judge to agree with you that they broke the law by doing so, is unresolved.

The "police check card" nonsense has absolutely no basis in law. There are one or more counties still engaging in this blatantly illegal process, but again no one has mounted a serious challenge to it that I know of. Don't agree to it if you can possibly help it. The statute requires the sheriff to perform the background check, not you to get it done and provide the results to him.

Here's the relevant statute for the application process: 18 Pa.C.S. § 6109: Licenses

[fortysix]

Leaving those fields blank will get an automatic denial, I suppose. Maybe grounds for a challenge then, since as mentioned, the sheriff confirming the truthfulness of any data I put for employment or references would be a violation of privacy (and a denial would be evidence of that violation).

[Kurt_D]

- The OP lives in MontCo
- That sheriff's office has this arsinine req't for a local police check card
- Some local PDs charge for it, others do not (in either case I think it's illegal because the sheriff's office is shirking its investigative responsibility by requiring it and there is no provision for it in the UFA)

At some point, someone who is affected by all that crap would have to legally challenge the requirement in order to get it removed.

@BenP -- DelCo doesn't require a police check card (at least they didn't for me last year) so I don't even know why Ridley Twp would have any reason to charge for one. If the sheriff's office checks on your background with them, that's on the sheriff, not you.

In all cases, there is a specific $5 fee (part of the $20 total) that the sheriff is allowed to charge for the background check and the UFA says they aren't supposed to charge any more than that - PERIOD!

You do have to appear, in person, at YOUR county sheriff's office (or a designated satellite office, if they exist - e.g. in Bucks Co) in order to apply for/get your LTCF which is the only place you should have to part with your $20 LTCF fee.

[twency]

Leaving those fields blank will get an automatic denial, I suppose. Maybe grounds for a challenge then, since as mentioned, the sheriff confirming the truthfulness of any data I put for employment or references would be a violation of privacy (and a denial would be evidence of that violation).

Maybe. There was a thread recently where someone mentioned that the Perry County sheriff actually has the references fields crossed out on the application they hand out. (Which I suppose is, strictly speaking, a violation of state law since the form is required to be uniform across the state, but I can't exactly bring myself to be upset about it.)

I doubt your sheriff feels similarly however. Anecdotes and evidence such as sheriffs' websites suggest that the majority (or at least a substantial minority) of the issuing authorities in the state are entirely happy to blatantly violate state law in one or more ways when it comes to the LTCF process.

[fortysix]

Quite honestly I didn't mind the police check card, it makes sense and, at least from the sheriff's website, seemed to be relatively pain-free. The thing I did not appreciate (hence why I initially paid the fee, but then asked for a refund) was the 7-10 day waiting period. FOR WHAT? The sheriff does the check (which I will again pay for), the woman at the counter could not (or would not) tell me what the money was going to be paying for. Post my police check card on the duty roster bulletin board for a day or two, if I'm *known* (whatever that has to do with my rights that a PICS check can't reveal is beyond me), it will be painfully obvious rather quickly. Police tend to know the troublemakers in their town. Seriously, 7-10 days, AND I have to pay 10$, AND I have to call every day to the courthouse to find out if they have received it or not. What is this 1912 or 2012?

I'm going to leave the fields for employer and references blank and stage a challenge. I'm the jerk that shows up at meetings with a briefcase and folders and reading glasses and a legal pad. Like they always say, *someone has to do it*, and I am someone.