Compilation of what happens when you VOLUNTARILY give up your rights...

**TheF00L** · August 20th, 2012, 02:06 PM

Not sure if the proper place BUT here is my reasoning:

Since there is so much debate about giving up our rights voluntarily while CC/OC, I think it would be wise to have a consolidated thread to DEMONSTRATE what might, can, will happen when you acquiesce.

This is not an indictment against those involved, just an area to educate those willing to give up their rights on what the consequences might be.

Here is an example:

http://forum.pafoa.org/concealed-ope...ampton-pa.html

So, without making the whole long story thin happen here - last year I was puled over and a misfiling with PENNDOT caused my tag to be listed as "suspended" - this matter was easily resolved in the days that followed however -
At an early point in the stop, I disclosed to the officer that we were both LTCF holders, and asked him how he would like to proceed. He asked me to get our d the vehicle, step around back to the trunk which I did, he removed two holstered 1911s from IWB/OWB holsters and my LCP from my front left pocket - he also took my wife's XDMc and her LTCF. Instead of waiting in my car - I was to stand out in the cold during a rather frigid point of the season. Two other officers arrive who seem to be more neutral - I wait likely 20 minutes in the cold. Finally, he gets out of his toasty cruiser and approaches me again.
Me: Are we almost finished? It's pretty cold out here
Cop: Yeah, we'll here's the issue were having - when I run your LTCF, it comes back as you actually having two LCTFs one of which is revoked, and one showing active.
Me: Okay.. Well - I can assure you that is not possible. I purchased one of those pistols less than a week ago. I have had a LCTF that I had re-issued due to my wallet being stolen but have never been revoked.
Cop: Yeah that's the other problem, the one gun is coming back as owned by a David Smith (Ex) the other ones are clear but that one isn't. Because I can't reach the sherriffs office - nobody is answering I'm going to have to confiscate these until I can verify validity of your LTCF.
Me: Well sir, like I said - I purchased it less than a week ago from (local gun shop) and typically it takes about 30 days for the state form to make it into the computerized database. That really doesn't matter, though as far as it being in my possession. Ok, so I'm going to comply with your siezing of my firearms - but I do not agree or consent in any way and I would like a receipt for them if that is your intention.
Cop: I can't give you a receipt here, you can get it when you come down to the station to pick them up if the sherriffs office calls back any time soon.
Me: Why would i need a receipt for something I'm picking up? You've already illegally taken them at that point. I want a receipt when you take the guns, I don't care if it's your name, badge number, and signature on a napkin - but if you are taking $3000 of my property I require some kind of documentation at the time they leave my possession.
So he talks to the other two cops, asks me to pop my trunk so he can put my guns back in there then snoops around the trunk while he's in there. Now my wife and six year old son are outside freezing as he searches my car without even asking for permission. I get $2000 in tickets and my plate taken. I call a cab and were off, with our firearms, just without our rights which had been raped.
Everything was dropped at the first hearing.
Oh, my point was that YES they can check the sales database out of a patrol car.

No way to know what would have happened had the OP not volunteered the information!!! What we do know is the following - from the OP's own lips (keyboard):

1 - I wait like 20 minutes in the cold. OP was made to wait outside in the freezing cold
2 - Because I can't reach the sherriffs office - nobody is answering I'm going to have to confiscate these until I can verify validity of your LTCF. OP threatened to have his weapons confiscated.
3 - Threatened to take the OP's weapons without giving a receipt.
4 - So he talks to the other two cops, asks me to pop my trunk so he can put my guns back in there then snoops around the trunk while he's in there. Once the OP complies (not thinking anything off about the request) his trunk is searched....
5 - Now my wife and six year old son are outside freezing as he searches my car without even asking for permission. I get $2000 in tickets and my plate taken. I call a cab and were off, with our firearms, just without our rights which had been raped.
6 - Everything was dropped at the first hearing. The OP had to go to a hearing, likely spend money for a lawyer, possibly lose money while taking time off from work to attend said hearing.

AGAIN, I will mention that we have no clue what would have happened had the OP not offered up the information - BUT it does give us something to ponder.

As we all see threads that would apply for this discussion, PLEASE add them for the benefit of all.

**TheF00L** · August 20th, 2012, 02:19 PM

http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-14...esdale-pd.html

Myself and this girl I was hanging with were looking for a secluded spot to "hang out" in Honesdale so we decided to go check out the cliff by the star. We go up there and theres this truck there with a kid standing outside. My friend bekka wanted a cigarette so she says lets go over there and ask. Were about ready to get out the car and she says oh bring your gun just incase (instant smile when she said that). We go over there and it turns out him and his gf were looking to do the same thing. So were talking and stuff and then a Honesdale PD cruiser comes up. They stay in the car and I approach the vehicle out of habit like I'm conducting a traffic stop and I shine my light in there car. It must of taken him off guard but he was nice and asking what we were up too. This is where the encounter happens.

PD: What are you guys doing up here?
Me: Just hanging out
PD: Oh well I know theres not a sign but you cant be up here past 11
Me: Oh ok we didnt know
The officer started talking some more and thats when out of courtesy I told him I was currently armed.
Me: Officer just wanna let ya know that I'm currently armed, one in my left front pocket and another in my car
PD: Ok stand in front of the car
Me: I just wanted to let ya know because when I do traffic stops I rather know,Im a MP
PD: I appreciate it
Me: I'm going to reach in my front left pocket and grab my cellphone
I then grab it and turn on the camcorder
Me: I do have my LTCF and if you would like to see it you can but I would rather you didnt disarm me
PD: Ok can I see it
Me: Sure its in my back left pocket
I then show him my LTCF because I'm carrying concealed, he looks at it, hands it back, we talk about my work and honesdale pd, the police academy and other stuff. He was real nice and respectful. He didn't violate my rights at all and was very different from my last encounter I had with them. It was a Sgt. and a younger officer. They still said we had to leave but overall it went well.

This example does NOT HAVE ANY OBVIOUS negative consequences for the OP. Please consider the following though:

How I/we/you react during an encounter helps pave the way for other OC/CC'ers who will come after you. Your/Our encounters ALSO HELP TRAIN THE COPS, CONDITION the cops and their expectations of how They think We should react during a stop by Them. Our actions reinforce their beliefs how a stop SHOULD go......be it right or wrong, legal or illegal, Rights infringing or non-Rights infringing.

And another similar remark made by the OP about another incident:

As to the OP I'm not bashing on the way you handled it just trying to give you some insight that the more times people stand up for our rights then the less chance of a bad encounter.

**TheF00L** · August 20th, 2012, 02:23 PM

http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/583...e-college.html

AND just to be fair, I will show that I WAS guilty of something similar years ago.

I had deleted the OP, BUT you can get a feel for the errors I made by reading the other posts as well as the quotes that still exist from my OP.

**TheF00L** · August 20th, 2012, 02:34 PM

http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-14...te-police.html

Last night I needed some supplies from Lowe's so I headed out and stopped by Sunoco here in Selinsgrove to get some gas before I ran out. I pulled up to the pump, got out and started walking to the store to prepay, where in the corner of my eye I saw a state trooper pull in and stopped at the pump right behind me. At first I wasn't sure if he saw me open carrying or if he truly need gas for his car. Waiting in line to prepay the officer started pumping his gas and his attention was focused on the front of the store. As I walked out of the store he looked at me but didn't say anything. I went about pumping my gas which was the most awkward $20 worth of pumping I ever did because he did keep an eye on me without saying a word. As I finished up pumping I hung up the nozzle I hear...

Mr state trooper say...
"I see you that you are driving, can I see your license to carry?"
me: "Sure"... I handed my ltcf which then he looked at it for a minute
Trooper: handed my ltcf back to me... "thanks"

Honestly I was totally shocked that the first ever encounter with a state trooper went as it should. Hats off to Officer Meng for knowing the law...

The criticism can be seen in the following post by JustinHEMI:

Knowing the law? If he knew the law he wouldn't have asked to see your LTCF.

Just saying.

I guess it could have been worse.

Justin

Check the thread for more indepth discussion.

**TheF00L** · August 20th, 2012, 02:46 PM

http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-14...verything.html

All because my gun was visible while I was pumping gas.

From the beginning:

I'm driving to Philly to pick up my sister because she wanted to come home for the weekend. I am on where 309 turns into Broad St. and notice that I am getting low on gas. While filling up, I didn't notice any weird stares or anything like that. The only person who made eye contact with me was an older Asian lady, but she didn't seem to be frightened or worried. I get back on Broad St. and continue down for about 5 blocks when the car next to me gets pulled over at a red light. The cop gets out of his car, gun in hand, and goes to the driver side (I could no longer see what was happening because I was in the right lane.) Seconds later, another cop appears out of no where, but his gun is pointed at the vehicle. He swings open the passenger side door and points the gun at the man's head, commanding him to keep his hands in the air. The gun was literally inches away from the suspect's head. The light turns green and I high tail it out of there, not wanting to be nearby in case some lead starts flying.

At first I chalked it up to some drug dealers getting busted, but then the coincidences start to add up. 1) The police were treating these men like they were armed 2) they were driving a dark SUV similar to mine 3) just five minutes beforehand I was out in public while open carrying. At this point I was 50% sure that they got the wrong car and were actually looking for me. Sure enough, after a few minutes of pondering if I was going to get pulled over, two cop cars pull out of oncoming traffic and stop right in front of my vehicle. Both of them jump out, guns drawn and pointed at my head through my front wind shield. I am told to put my hands up so I follow their instructions (obviously). A quick glance in the rear view mirror and all I see is red and blue. Within 10 seconds, there are SEVEN cop cars surrounding my vehicle from every side. One of the first officers on the scene tries to open my driver side door, but it was locked. He tells me to slowly unlock my door. At this point I was hesitant because I didn't want to spook the other cops and end up with a donut-sized hole in my dome, but I eventually put my left hand down to hit the unlock switch. He wastes no time at all, reaching across my body and disarming me. He puts the car in park and turns it off, and finally says that I can put my hands down.

*FH = Fuck Head

FH 1: Do you have a license to carry that?
Me: Yes
FH 1: ... well?
Me: Do you want to see it?
FH 1: Yes please, and if everything checks out, then we'll have you on your way.

While that cop was running my LTCF, another one comes up to my window.

FH 2: Hey, you have a license for that?
Me: *points the other officer who has my license*
FH 2: Oh OK, yea. Just so you know, what you were doing is completely legal. Open carrying is legal and is your right. But sometimes...
Me: ...sometimes things like this happen?
FH 2: Yea.
Me: That's awesome.

He frowns at me and walks away. A minute later, another idiot comes up to my window.

FH 3: So you were just at a gas station, right?
Me: ...
FH 3: Well, a woman saw that you had a gun, called us, and followed you out of the gas station.
Me: What did she say? Was I making any threatening gestures? Did I take the gun out of the holster? I don't understand how anything I did warranted this type of response from you guys.
FH 3: I don't know what she said. It's just protocol. When we get a call about someone carrying a gun, we don't know what that person is up to.
Me: Yea, whatever.

There was no point arguing with these baboons. At this point I just wanted to get my gun back and go on with my trip.

FH 1 begins to walk back to my car, NOT holding my gun. I already knew what he was about to say.

FH 1: When we ru-
Me: Yea, it doesn't show up in the record of sales database under my name. The State Police screwed up. I bought it at reputable gun shop and have all the paper work to go along with it.
FH 1: OK no problem, you'll be on your way in a second. Thanks for hanging in there, man.

A minute later, my property is returned to me and I am told to chamber a round after they leave. Hey, at at least they were nice to me after they pointed their service pistols at my fucking head. Overall, I'd say this was a positive encounter for the Philadelphia Police Department. It took less than 5 minutes and I didn't get charged with disorderly conduct, nor was my property stolen from me. Oh yea, I wasn't shot either, so that's a plus!

AND From GunLawyer001:

(Skipped here from page 1)

Pointing a loaded gun at a person is "reckless endangerment", every time, in the absence of a compelling justification. Even for cops.

It is a civil rights violation to point loaded guns at a person based on nothing more than a report that the person possessed a firearm. There's a reason that "armed and dangerous" includes the "and dangerous" clause.

Try it yourself, point a gun at a cop because he "might" have killed a cop and stolen the uniform, and you need to protect yourself while you verify that yes, just as it appears, he's done nothing illegal. That will give the rest of us a chance to attend an OC funeral followed by a somber PAFOA OC picnic.

If cops are free to shoot you dead if you point a gun at them, then how can it be standard operating procedure for THEM to point guns at the citizens who hire them?

**Slick17** · August 20th, 2012, 03:03 PM

Good posts man. It's nice to have them all in one place.

**TheF00L** · August 20th, 2012, 03:04 PM

http://forum.pafoa.org/concealed-car...ur-weapon.html

Just a scenario if you were pulled over on a traffic stop and the officer asked if there are any weapons in the car and you disclose that you are in posseion of a gun with a LTCF. I know that it is a touchy subject regarding the officer taking your firearm from you during a stop which has nothing to do with your gun, but is demanded they want to take possesion of the firearm. My question is I never feel safe handing someone a loaded gun that I dont know! Reason I ask is a few years ago while hunting I had a WCO check my information in the field and asked to see my rifle. I started to unload it an he said it was not necessary to unload it. I said yes it is I dont know you. Can I say/do the same thing if my firearm is requested by an officer? I dont feel safe handing anyone a loaded firearm without me knowing they can properly handle it (loading, unloading, proper operation, etc)

**internet troll** · August 25th, 2012, 10:58 PM

Just saw this post, I like the idea.

**ImminentDanger** · August 26th, 2012, 12:41 AM

And for those interested in researching the issues.....

STOP, DETAIN, SEARCH - What CAN an Officer Do Legally

...

**TheF00L** · August 29th, 2012, 05:03 AM

http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-14...encounter.html

In the above thread the OP states that he regrets giving the LEO his LTCF. Now he did it in his own words to basically prove the LEO wrong in his belief (the LEO's) that it said on there that you had to CC if you had a LTCF.

What happened next is that the LEO copied down the OP's info....and threatened to revoke his LTCF for OC'ing.

I probably would have wanted to do the same thing that the OP did just to prove the ignorant LEO wrong.

Another lesson I have learned today!

I can not copy the whole thread here (on my phone) but will do so after work unless someone else would like to beat me to it. Thanks.

EDIT: Below is the thread. There is video at the link. Through persistance of the OP as well as other PAFOA members AS WELL AS the OP having audio/video of the event, it seems that a positive resolution may come of this experience!

Well, last night the wife and I headed out to the West End Fair in Gilbert to watch the demo derby. Before heading out I searched online at their website and found no policy of any sort. I also OC there last year with no issues so I was not expecting any this year. When we got there, we walked up to the gate, paid our entrance fee and went right in with no issues(no signs posted or anything of the sort). We walked towards the main arena to get our tickets for the derby, and along the way she found a jewelery stand that had a couple rings she wanted. After purchasing those I realized I did not have enough cash on me for the rest of the night, so we had to make a trip back out tot the car to grab some more.

On the way back in we had to walk past a group of several Sheriffs Deputies. This is when I was told that I would not be allowed to enter as long as I was OC. I explained that I had already entered and showed them my hand stamp. I was told that It must have been missed and that I would need to conceal to enter. The deputy seemed to be under the impression that once you had a "CCW Permit" that you must conceal. I tried to explain several times that PA did not have a CCW permit, that it issued a LTCF and nowhere does it stipulate that you must conceal, but got cut off or shot down every time. Since we wanted to see the derby I had decided to go grab my LTCF and cover up. The officer also assured me that he could show me on the license that it was a CCW and I had to conceal in public.

I did my best to remain as calm as possible. Some of the things that I was told that I am not sure if they are in the video are: I was arguing and defying the Officer, I am not allowed to OC because it will cause panic for others in the fair, If I wanted to keep my LTCF I had to cooperate and not OC, I had not idea what I was talking about. parents don't want their kids to see that...

At one point in the video you can see the officers walk away and then come back with a slightly better attitude. This is where he went to talk to one of his superiors(I think) and was basically told that I was correct and that I was legally allowed to OC. The issue then became that the fair grounds was private property and that weapons were not allowed. I said if that was truly an issue, we would like a refund and would leave, but wanted to make a suggestion that they(the fair operators) post signage or somehow make it available of their policy so that this issue doesn't happen more.

This then lead to the president of the fair committee coming out to give clarification on the policy and see if i would be allowed in as long as I CC. Well the guy came out but never said a single word because a different deputy did all of his talking. My wife did not catch this on the recording, but he was very rude and simply said that the policy was no drugs, no alcohol, no firearms and I had to leave. even took the $10 refund out of his pocket so that I would leave without walking up to ask for a refund or wait while one of the other deputies walked up to get one for me. when the suggestion was made to the fair president to have signs posted, the deputy jumped in again and said they don't have to post signs and that i just needed to leave, he wasn't going to argue with me.

I would like to send a letter but I am not good at writing that sort of thing. MY biggest issue is that it seems that they do not understand or know the law that OC is legal once you have a LTCF. On a slightly positive side, I was never disarmed for "officer safety". They never asked to see the firearm to run the numbers or anything. I do regret giving him my LTCF but I really did want to see him try to show me where it said concealed on it. He did look it over and seemed to be dumbfounded that it did not have what he was looking for. the reason that I regret it is that he then copied my info down off of it (when he threatened to revoke it for OC)

Anyhow after the lengthy post that I am sure missed some details, here is the video my wife recorded. It started just after I gave him my LTCF so he could show me that it said I had to conceal.