Carry Permit in Philly, How Long?

[rickypaul]

I never received the notification letter. I went down a day after the "45 Working Days" was up because I was in town for something else. They told me it was ready and they issued it to me. They have this liberal idea that guns are bad so they issue the permits because they are forced to by Pennsylvania Law. I think the ladies that work there are nice enough, but my belief is that they intentionally don't issue notifications and take as long as possible because they are intentionally underfunded. I'm just glad to have it.

[astn]

Do nothing, get nothing. If you don't stand up for yourself, what other result can you expect? ... After 45 days (NOT business days), go down there and demand your license.

I don't really appreciate the rebuke, Jon, as we both know it isn't really that easy, and when you pretend it is, you tend to get smacked pretty hard upside the head.

The essential problem is that Philadelphia doesn't follow the law and Harrisburg couldn't give a fuck, and isn't likely to in the future. So far as we just elected an attorney general where a key campaign promise was to eliminate a so-called "florida loophole" that is only of concern due to localities failing to follow state law, which was largely a Philadelphia issue. This is just one issue among many where the City does what it wants and Harrisburg does nothing, too afraid of losing the votes.

However: I could go tomorrow with the attitude you suggest, and one of three things might happen: (1) I'd be pleasantly surprised. (2) They could issue me a denial on the spot. (3) They could play the "business days" game, to which I could argue that the law doesn't mean that which would lead back to option 1 or 2. If they did deny me, I can file in the Court of Common Pleas, and there is a strong likelihood I would prevail, as they did violate the statute. Of course, not only would I get to pay a lawyer and filing fees, but I would also be at the pleasure of the Court of Common Pleas, which as I understand it is frequently three to four months in arrears on it's schedule (that entire time without my LCTF). And that's ignoring the possibility, however slight, that the City might take that additional time to find or manufacture a good reason to deny me the permit. While, technically speaking, they have no valid cause at this point to fail to issue a permit, anyone with more then a passing knowledge of the law understands that the law is interpreted by judges, who have been known to violate the letter of the law for reasons of "public interest" or to follow the "spirit of the law". Even if the judge recognized they took the time to "thoroughly investigate" me, I might not get the judgement or if they were forced to issue for failing to follow the "45 days" they might issue and then revoke, and force me to go through it all again. It all depends on how difficult they want to make my life. Or, I could be pleasantly surprised, but that's not the expectation I make when dealing with the City.

If you are denied, you then demand a written certified letter on the exact reason why.

I would note, as an aside, your recommendation is well-intentioned but poorly considered.

First, you don't need the letter to sue the City (in fact, I could go to Common Pleas tomorrow and file). Second, as the letter needs to be sent via certified mail, they certainly can't present it to you at that moment, so what does "demanding" it really do? Third, making that demand may give them cause to consider the contents of that letter, as they may realize it's import (e.g. the word 'certified' is regularly associated with 'lawsuit' for many ears). Fourth, you would be better off taking whatever paperwork they give you, as it will likely be poorly supported (e.g. a denial form stating they didn't have time to investigate you).

As an example, if I were in the Gun Permit Unit and assuming it was my job to minimize the number of licenses approved and generally be as obstructionist of an asshole as possible--not that I would take that job. The letter I would write would include: "Applicant was belligerent and angry, acted unstable during interview and subsequent contact with the office. Used aggressive language with the officers of the Gun Permit Unit whereupon applicant demanded their permit. Applicant was therefore denied LTCF for 18 Pa.C.S.§6109(e)(1)(i) as they would not only be likely to "act in a manner dangerous to public safety" but have already demonstrated capacity to do so." How do you disprove any of that? Let's say they have no issue with being even more "illustrative" then that and simply start making stuff up regarding your statements. How do you PROVE you DIDN'T do something? It's game over, as that would not only sink you from ever getting a permit in this state but would screw you for any other state you might later apply.

The squeaky wheel gets the grease, but the nail that stands above the rest tends to get pounded. It's in the "community's" interest for someone to stand up and fight for their rights, but it is almost universally against that person's interest to do so. That is, of course, the essential crux of the problem with the gun rights movement. Even more broadly, legal gun owners are essentially law-abiding citizens. We gnash our teeth and swear when the government does us ill, but we're either too conditioned or too smart to fight too hard. If we don't fight for our rights, we'll lose them. I not only expect but observe that we ARE losing our rights and freedoms; we're selling liberty for temporary security like we're whores at Wal-Mart. All the same, It's not in my interest to be the test case, and I won't. Nor will most people. In another county, I might be more inclined to "fight" with the Sheriff, but Philadelphia has the advantage of KNOWING Harrisburg is not only powerless over it's business but is willing to appease it.

So yes, I'd rather wait it out, knowing that eventually, when they get around to it, and if they can't find a decent reason not to, they sometime, someday, might follow the rules, rather then be sure that I won't be allowed to legally carry a weapon for some months until a judge probably/possibly grants my appeal, assuming nothing else goes wrong. As they say: "That's life in the city."

One of the analogies about gun ownership is there are three types of people in the world, sheep, sheepdogs, and wolves. Except that's missing the government, reprising the key role of the Shepherd. And if the sheepdog are beat down enough, they'll eventually get in line and go "Baaaaaa!" That's where I am, bleeting along with all the rest.

[astn]

And of course, the letter arrives in the mail today. I guess the latest "batch" went out.

[djalex_v]

Just received my letter in the mail and will be picking it up Wednesday due to the fact that I understand they will be closed Thursday for the holidays.

[BimmerJon]

I don't really appreciate the rebuke, Jon, as we both know it isn't really that easy, and when you pretend it is, you tend to get smacked pretty hard upside the head.

I'm going to be honest.. I didn't read anything past the above. It's always the typical excuses.... Question remains... Have you ever TRIED to SIMPLY say "No" to the illegal requests?

Forget lawyers and the AG or DA or Congress or whatever... Simply stand firm and say NO

Then we'll talk

If you're cool with following illegal requests just to get your permit then fine... but don't ever complain about it again
Everyone that submits to it makes it 10 times harder for the person behind them

[rickypaul]

When I applied for mine, I had the letters, but I forgot one of the "other" forms of ID. I said "what do you need that for? You have my license and a cable bill. She refused and said I would have to come back. I said that my car insurance card was in my truck and she allowed me to run out to get it without losing my place in line.

At the end of the day, Philadelphia is breaking the state law. I appreciate BimmerJon's idealism on this but the bottom line is that we in Philadelphia are just interested in getting our permits, not fighting for a cause, not making ourselves martyrs, and not incurring legal expense for what are basically inconveniences.

Anyone getting a permit in Philadelphia, don't expect to get a notification that your permit is approved. Wait the 45 working days and on the 46th day, go down to the office and say that you are checking on the status. Magically it will appear.

[astn]

I'm going to be honest.. I didn't read anything past the above. It's always the typical excuses.... Question remains... Have you ever TRIED to SIMPLY say "No" to the illegal requests?

Forget lawyers and the AG or DA or Congress or whatever... Simply stand firm and say NO

Then we'll talk

If you're cool with following illegal requests just to get your permit then fine... but don't ever complain about it again
Everyone that submits to it makes it 10 times harder for the person behind them

I'm impressed by your maturity Jon, as "I'M NOT LISTENING TO YOU" stopped working for me around the second grade. I hope your new year goes well and wish you the best of luck in your future endeavors.

[lemko]

I'm going to need to renew my LTCF in October. Do they notify you when to renew. How long prior to the expiration of the LTCF should one renew? Does one still need to submit all the same stuff to renew as when one initially applies?

[BimmerJon]

I'm impressed by your maturity Jon, as "I'M NOT LISTENING TO YOU" stopped working for me around the second grade. I hope your new year goes well and wish you the best of luck in your future endeavors.

Which is ironic because when you go to pick up your license on day 46 and the GPU tells you it's business days... any attempt to inform them they are not following the law is EXACTLY responded with "IM NOT LISTENING TO YOU" by them.

[Sparks]

I'm going to need to renew my LTCF in October. Do they notify you when to renew. How long prior to the expiration of the LTCF should one renew? Does one still need to submit all the same stuff to renew as when one initially applies?

They might.
I'd start 60 days prior so there is a little overlap. Consider their 45 business day count.
Only difference between a renew and a new application is one little checkbox. You need all the paperwork as when you first applied.