Thinking of calibers best suited for use on body armor?

[Breadman03]

9x25 dillan ftw. I doubt a vest could withstand that monster.

1600 fps or so. You're probably right.

[Mad Scientist]

I think my 1911 .45acp would stun them enough while I take a head shot

Except in this case we're also dealing with ballistic headgear. And a gas mask of indeterminate ballistic utility.

So would a 480 with steal-core, teflon-coated, incendiary rounds work, or should I just pay the tax stamp and get an RPG?

[39flathead]

I think my 1911 .45acp would stun them enough while I take a head shot

Sorry, I think .45 ACP is not even close when it comes to an armored assailant.

Slow and steady does not always win the race.

[ByAnyMeans]

I carry a 9mm and have no plans in the near future of switching. however, if I was going to choose a caliber that was effective agianst body armor then Valorius hit the nail on the head with your best choice.


Valorius, I owe you rep for your first post but I have to spread it around first.

[Valorius]

The thing is Valorius I don't need all that for shooting paper. I just need a round that has the same kind of recoil and accuracy as the defensive loads.

Then 5.7mm is not the caliber for you. You're gonna wanna stick to a 7.62x25mm Tok with your budget.

As for the Five Seven why am I paying $1000 for one?

Because it's the only gun in the world like it? Because it is not a domestic made S&W, it is an imported and highly regarded Fabrique Nationale weapon?

But mostly, because that's what the market bears. It's admittedly not a poor man's gun. Between mags, ammo, the gun, barrel threading and optics, i have over $5000 invested in my Five Seven.

My M&P 9 costed $490, it shoots better than I am capable of and runs reliably after 2000 rounds (Half of those rounds were cheap Tula 9mm). I don't know much on the Five Seven's design but it doesn't seems to operate on some exotic principals or use some weird/rare materials in it's construction. I am not going to pay that kind of money just to have FNH stamped on the slide. I didn't even like spending $1100 on my Colt 6920 and it's a rifle.

Then you'll have to stick with your M&P and make head shots, i really dont know what to tell you bro.

BTW: They are saying now that the Dark Knight killer had on a FULL suit of body armor, so a legacy caliber handgun would have been almost completely useless. He had on leg, groin and throat protection, as well as the chest and head protection.

I am down for PDW rounds but I want something at a more reasonable price. For now I am going to stick with a Tokarev pistol and get some surplus while it last. It's far from the best but it's better than nothing.

If you decide to go the Tok route, i would be sure to try and get some sort of night sights fitted. Trying to return fire in a dark movie theater against a dark moving target would be virtually impossible.

10mm hurts like a bitch apparently..

Now do you think he'd even feel that in an adrenaline filled killing rage?

Nope.

When i tested Speer 10mm 180gr Gold Dot against a level IIA panel (12 layers- half that of a typical IIIA), it failed to penetrate every time. (3 shots)

.460 XVR magnum can penetrate any level 3A body armor and still do major damage, so can the S&W .500 Magnum.

FN 57 can penetrate body armor with the FMJ round which is restricted to LEO only, the plastic tip and hollow point wont go thru level 3A.

Tokarev has some body armor penetration capabiliteis with fmj.

some said the .454 Casull can penetrate up to level II i dont know about level 3A

There are numerous civilian legal rounds in 5.7mm that will penetrate IIIA.

They are:

FN SS190 (civilian legal to possess)
FN SS198 LE
FN SS192
FN SS195LF White Box
Elite Ammo S4 and S4M
Elite Ammo T6 PFP (Pointed fragmenting projectile)
Elite Ammo Protector II 40gr Vmax @ 1900fps might work on a IIIA, but i've not tested it. I've seen it shot through lvl II in you tube vidoes though.
Clark Custom 30gr Barnes JHP @ 2300fps should defeat a IIIA too, but i've never seen a test of that.

If you handload, you can load Barnes TSX solid coppers to max pressure and probably shoot through 2 IIIA vests back to back (4 panels).

Here is the Elite PFP, completely civilian legal. The new version is solid copper. Velocity is approx 2500fps:



That round will probably penetrate over 60 layers of kevlar, if i had to guess. My carry round in 5.7mm is the Elite S4M @ 2500+ fps. There are videos online of it shooting clean through level IIIA vests.

I have personally shot FN SS192 @2100fps through 48 layers of kevlar, in front of witnesses, at Double tap range in Philly.

Are you REALLY going to carry a freakin' .454 Casull? If you do...don't miss with your first shot, youre not likely to get a second. And honestly, i have never seen any video at all of a .454 casull or similar penetrating body armor. The frontal area of the bullet really works against it.

[Valorius]

The 5.7 was built as a high capacity AP handgun but when sold to the civilian public the bullet selection is limited to weaker non penetrating rounds. Yes I know about Elite Ammo but good luck actually getting their ammo. Also everyone is bringing up how they would have fired for spots not covered in body armor... It was a dark theater and he was probably wearing clothing over his body armor so good luck knowing that you were going against a target in armor and even more luck hitting the extremities in a dark theater. It was one of those situations we call a worst case scenario. Bad situation.

I have hundreds of rounds of Elite ammo of 3 different types.

FN steel core SS190 AP ammo is LEGAL TO POSSESS for civilians. So if you can find it (and afford it), you can use it. It is not classified as AP by the ATF, FN voluntarily refuses to sell it to civilians.

FN SS192 will also easily penetrate IIIA body armor, and is civilian legal. Same for SS195LF white box. The new SS195LF is reduced capacity, but still penetrates about 18 layers of kevlar in the tests that i did...so even the weakest 5.7mm round on the market can probably still defeat some level II vests.

NUMEROUS CIVILIAN LEGAL ROUNDS IN 5.7MM WILL PENETRATE A IIIA VEST: PLEASE STOP SPREADING DISINFORMATION PEEPS.

1600 fps or so. You're probably right.

You can already get 9mm parabellum ammo in that velocity range from Doubletap.

Doubletap 9mm+P 80gr Solid copper hollowpoint @1600fps. It only penetrates about 15-18 layers, the same as Buffalo Bore 115gr 9mm+P+ Montana Gold hard core MHP. Might defeat a Level II, i seriously, seriously doubt it will defeat a IIIA. (but i have never actually tested it)

So no, 9x25mm is probably not going to work against IIIA with common loadings either. If you loaded that same 80gr bullet you would certainly have something worth testing though. You might get 1900fps out of it!

Not to nitpick, but 00 buck is not a large caliber round.


I'm thinking a .44 magnum against soft armor is going to make a guy think twice real quick.

The LA shootout guys were wearing multiple layers as well, not what one would typically see.

When buckshot hits at close range it is really one mass of energy for practical purposes, almost a solid projectile. A 44 COM hit is not going to do shit to stop an attacker with a IIIA vest on.

Every IIIA vest on the market is designed to stop a 240gr full power .44 magnum hit with acceptable backforce deformation. I'm pretty sure it's one of the test rounds. Maybe you can full house load a 180 solid to go through a IIIA (in fact, you probably can), but the recoil and flash would be EXTREME.

Contrast with a 5.7mm, which has almost no recoil at all...in the same time you could fire 2 shots with teh full house .44, you'd get off over a half dozen with the Five Seven.

My bullet of choice, for carry......

http://shopwilsoncombat.com/45-ACP-P...A45-185-TACXP/

1060 fps
462 ft lbs

Would it work,,,, I don't know and hope I never have to find out. But it is a nice bullet. 9 of them will be dispensed rapidly.

No, your bullets will have no effect whatsoever, and will not even penetrate now obsolete 20 year old reduced performance Level IIA body armor. I've tested 185gr Rem+P rounds....no go even against level IIA. Just way too much frontal area to overcome.

Sorry bro.

IN MY TESTS (all of the armor in these tests was quite old- new armor would perform better):

9mm 80gr+P @1600fps Doubletap SCHP: Stopped at about 15-18 layers penetration. Defeats a IIA panel easily.
9mm 115gr+P @1400fps Corbon Sierra JHP: Stopped by level IIA vest, 12 layers
9mm 115gr+P @1425fps Buffalo Bore MHP (no longer sold): Defeated IIA vest, total penetration approx 15+ layers (may or may not penetrate some level II vests, probably not)

10mm 155gr Speer Gold Dot JHP handloads. These were loaded so hot they ruptured the cases (NOT MY ROUNDS OR GUN!): Defeated 18 of 24 layers (Most IIIA's are 20-24 layers from what i've read). Actual velocity unknown.
10mm 180gr Speer Gold Dot JHP: Failure to penetrate Lv IIA panel

.45 ACP 185gr+P Remington JHP: about 10 layers penetration....not quite enough to defeat the 20 year old lvl IIA panel i shot with it.
.45 ACP 230gr HST: LOL....yeah, right. About 6 layers total penetration

In 5.7mm every round but the SS197SR defeated the Lvl IIA panel with ease. SS192 @ 2100fps shot through FOUR STACKED IIA PANELS. I have never even tested Elite S4, it's the same bullet as SS192/195....but 400fps faster. It will probably defeat 50 or more layers. There are tests online of that round shooting through IIIA panels and still penetrating 11" in gel with massive jacket fragmentation and a deep tumbling primary wound tract.

I've tested all the contemporaries, none of them comes close to doing what 5.7mm does against soft body armor. I've also shot them against hard fiberglass ballistic plates, and it outperforms all legacy rounds by a huge margin in that medium as well.

That being said, most if not all level III/IV hard trauma plates will defeat even the hottest 5.7mm rounds, even the "AP" SS190 steel core...which...btw....IS NOT ILLEGAL TO OWN.

I think that hot loaded lightweight .357 magnum rounds would probably fare quite well, but i've never tested any. Something like the 80gr Barnes SCHP copper bullet driven to 1800-2000fps should work really well.

[LifeInPa]

Then 5.7mm is not the caliber for you. You're gonna wanna stick to a 7.62x25mm Tok with your budget.


Because it's the only gun in the world like it? Because it is not a domestic made S&W, it is an imported and highly regarded Fabrique Nationale weapon?

But mostly, because that's what the market bears. It's admittedly not a poor man's gun. Between mags, ammo, the gun, barrel threading and optics, i have over $5000 invested in my Five Seven.


Then you'll have to stick with your M&P and make head shots, i really dont know what to tell you bro.

BTW: They are saying now that the Dark Knight killer had on a FULL suit of body armor, so a legacy caliber handgun would have been almost completely useless. He had on leg, groin and throat protection, as well as the chest and head protection.


If you decide to go the Tok route, i would be sure to try and get some sort of night sights fitted. Trying to return fire in a dark movie theater against a dark moving target would be virtually impossible.

Well the thing is I really don't carry my pistol yet, I was just curious on the subject since body armor is so cheap so even a petty thug can get that and a firearm leaving me unsafe. I am more worried about a home invasion by a dude high on some hardcore drugs who is smart enough to come with some level 3 armor to rob my home. On the Five Seven that's my issue with it, they have the market cornered and no else is stepping up to the plate to make a pistol in 5.7 nor are many ammo producers making rounds for it. I personally cannot afford to make such an investment in one firearm. I only have $2.5k invested in my arsenal but that's across 3 firearms.

I think the chances of having my family threatened by a scumbag in full body armor is very low and for the time being I think I am safe with 9mm, I am just doing some thinking for down the road.

[Valorius]

The chances that you will need a gun at all are very low. We're all playing %'s here.

Given that you can get a IIIA vest for under $100 on ebay, and given that my tests show that even 20 year old plus soft body armor still retains a high level of effectiveness, i don't know why any armed homeowner or zombie apocalypse afficionado would not own a IIIA vest, or even numerous IIIA vests. You can drape one right over a window sill, and combined with the protection of the wall itself, you have a darn good fighting position in 2 seconds flat. Especially if you are wearing one as well.

[kimura]

NUMEROUS CIVILIAN LEGAL ROUNDS IN 5.7MM WILL PENETRATE A IIIA VEST: PLEASE STOP SPREADING DISINFORMATION PEEPS.

holy hypocrisy, batman!

it's ok for you to spread allll kinds of misinformation (and 5.7 propaganda), but not for someone else?

[Valorius]

holy hypocrisy, batman!

it's ok for you to spread allll kinds of misinformation (and 5.7 propaganda), but not for someone else?

Off to ignore you go. Future posts of yours will be met by silence from me. (Didnt the mods just delete a ton of your (to be fair: our) posts just yesterday when you started a pissing match about the 5.7mm?)

I have an idea though....why dont you just present your data without inflammatory comments. I am a regular guy doing tests on stuff that i can get my hands on. Is it scientific testing? No. But it is real world testing. Will my results always line up with scientific results? Nope, probably not. Do i get to try every sort of version of a particular item, like trauma plates? Nope...not on my budget.

If you have data that contradicts mine or someone else's presenting it in a non-dicklike fashion is the way to go if you ask me. Or you could flame, and get your posts deleted. The choice is yours.