Thinking of calibers best suited for use on body armor?

[Valorius]

Here's a question. If a IIIA vest can stop most common handgun calibers, how many round of a would it take to eventually defeat the vest or is that not possible? Let's say I have a G17 with a 33rd mag, is that enough rounds to damage the vest to the point of failure?

You'd never be able to get enough hits in the same spot.

REALLY hot 9mm+P+ will penetrate about 12-15 layers of kevlar. Lvl IIIA veats are generally 18-24 layers. 9mm acutally out penetrates .40, .45 and .44 in kevlar, in the tests that i did. Less frontal area. That's why the 5.7mm really shines, plus the velocity is beyond what soft kevlar is intended to handle.

@life in pa: there is no such thing as plinking ammo in 5.7mm. All the rounds sold on the market are suitable for hunting or defense, so while $20/50 sounds kinda pricey (its really not- .45 ammo costs darned near as much just for FMJ), when you consider that you're getting highly effective Hornady Vmax expanding ammo for that price, that is not a bad deal at all.

You won't even come remotely close to touching a Five Seven for $500.

[39flathead]

Impressive, I didn't know the 5.7 round behaved that violently once it hit flesh. I only have to ask when, if ever the price of 5.7 ammo will come down and if more companies will make firearms chambered in the round? It's very hard to train with rounds that cost $20 per 50 rounds. What I am trying to say is we need more options so the price on the ammo/firearms in this caliber will drop. I'd add a 5.7 pistol to my collection if I can get a pistol for $500 and get plinking ammunition for $10/50 rounds.

Excel Arms is supposed to be making a 5.7 available soon.
MP5.7 Accelerator
http://www.excelarms.com/newproducts.html
Should be well under $500.

I'm thinking about being a guinea pig, something I never do, and trying out the X5.7R rifle when it becomes available instead of getting a 5.7 upper.

While it might not be the best choice for a carry gun, maybe it could be modded or maybe they'll bring out something else.


Also, the 5.7 can be reloaded and uses common .224 bullets.
However, it is claimed to be difficult to load, and I have never loaded any to confirm or deny.

http://www.fivesevenforum.com/w/inde...he_FN_5.7x28mm

Check out the Barnes bullets at the bottom of the page, I'm thinking these should do the job.


As for myself, I'm thinking seriously about the Armscor in the 22TCM when dies and reloading data become available. I'm thinking maybe SS109 bullets will work if the OAL is decent.


Last, like stated above, some large calibers should still break bones and cause damage.
I'm thinking a Dan Wesson .445 Supermag with a 3" barrel, a Ruger Alaskan in .44mag with Buffalo Bore rounds or one in .454 would almost surely incapacitate the typical bad guy.

[Valorius]

Large caliber bullets do not cause trauma in case after case that i have seen.

The LA bank robbers were shot numerous times on their body armor with 00 buck and it had no effect whatsoever. For that matter, they were shot in their bodies numerous times with pistol rounds that penetrated the seams in their vest, and that didnt have any effect either.

Do not count on sufficient blunt force trauma to end a fight to occur if you shoot someone, even with a 12 gauge.

[normanvin]

Before I just throw out an answer might I ask a question? Because you have this awesome bullet stopping armor on are you bullet proof? Are you mentally ready to take a bullet to test the armor?

[father-of-five]

Here's a question. If a IIIA vest can stop most common handgun calibers, how many round of a would it take to eventually defeat the vest or is that not possible? Let's say I have a G17 with a 33rd mag, is that enough rounds to damage the vest to the point of failure?

I would like to think that even if the vest was not penetrated, that multiple cracked ribs and significant bruising would slow down the attacker, assuming that you are hitting him enough to keep him from hitting you, and you are lucky enough to not be the one he is initially aiming at. Theoretically, I will assume that he came to the theater expecting to be shot at with the kind of protection he was reportedly wearing, not just looking to shoot defenseless people. The element of surprise might not be enough, but I'm open to hearing more.

This thread is really informative, thanks all!

[SigSauer226]

Large caliber bullets do not cause trauma in case after case that i have seen.

The LA bank robbers were shot numerous times on their body armor with 00 buck and it had no effect whatsoever. For that matter, they were shot in their bodies numerous times with pistol rounds that penetrated the seams in their vest, and that didnt have any effect either.

Do not count on sufficient blunt force trauma to end a fight to occur if you shoot someone, even with a 12 gauge.

I think the mental state of a bad guy plays a lot into what they can handle as well. A guy all jacked up on adrenaline or drugs is going to be less likely to be affected by gun shot wound.

Here's a neat excerpt from one of synergy's posts.

Not my words, Gabe Suarez's:

(snip)

Let me put it in a different perspective. A student of mine who works for a narcotics Unit in the south recently reported in. He told me that he and his guys had gotten in a gunfight with a violent drug dealer. Our student shot the bad guy once with a shotgun loaded with Federal Tactical Slugs. (Slugs incidentally are about .72 caliber and are suggested as anti-bear insurance in Alaska). The shotgun slug entered the right side of the bad guy’s chest from about the 2:00 and exited through the back at about the 8:00.

Nice shot. However, the bad guy not only kept fighting, but stole a car and evaded the pursuing police officers into a wooded area. A week later, the bad guy’s attorney arranged for him to turn himself in. He was alive and well, albeit injured. Does anyone want to tell me how deadly their pistol round is now?

[Neilthepilot]

I always thought that this was the point of the "Double Tap". The first shot at a moving target that may be firing at you is center mass. The first shot hopefully will give him or her pause (even the 9mm left a softball sized dent in the clay) the second shot follows on the non protected watermelon.

[LifeInPa]

@life in pa: there is no such thing as plinking ammo in 5.7mm. All the rounds sold on the market are suitable for hunting or defense, so while $20/50 sounds kinda pricey (its really not- .45 ammo costs darned near as much just for FMJ), when you consider that you're getting highly effective Hornady Vmax expanding ammo for that price, that is not a bad deal at all.

You won't even come remotely close to touching a Five Seven for $500.

The thing is Valorius I don't need all that for shooting paper. I just need a round that has the same kind of recoil and accuracy as the defensive loads. When I bought my AR I took your advice and got 500 rounds of M193 for defensive purposes but when I go to the range I always run steel cased .223 and I save a tremendous amount. Right now I saved at least $40-$50 (In just 3 months) by doing this which I rolled into magazines for the AR and putting another rifle into layaway.

As for the Five Seven why am I paying $1000 for one? My M&P 9 costed $490, it shoots better than I am capable of and runs reliably after 2000 rounds (Half of those rounds were cheap Tula 9mm). I don't know much on the Five Seven's design but it doesn't seems to operate on some exotic principals or use some weird/rare materials in it's construction. I am not going to pay that kind of money just to have FNH stamped on the slide. I didn't even like spending $1100 on my Colt 6920 and it's a rifle.

Excel Arms is supposed to be making a 5.7 available soon.
MP5.7 Accelerator
http://www.excelarms.com/newproducts.html
Should be well under $500.

I'm thinking about being a guinea pig, something I never do, and trying out the X5.7R rifle when it becomes available instead of getting a 5.7 upper.

While it might not be the best choice for a carry gun, maybe it could be modded or maybe they'll bring out something else.


Also, the 5.7 can be reloaded and uses common .224 bullets.
However, it is claimed to be difficult to load, and I have never loaded any to confirm or deny.

http://www.fivesevenforum.com/w/inde...he_FN_5.7x28mm

Check out the Barnes bullets at the bottom of the page, I'm thinking these should do the job.


As for myself, I'm thinking seriously about the Armscor in the 22TCM when dies and reloading data become available. I'm thinking maybe SS109 bullets will work if the OAL is decent.


Last, like stated above, some large calibers should still break bones and cause damage.
I'm thinking a Dan Wesson .445 Supermag with a 3" barrel, a Ruger Alaskan in .44mag with Buffalo Bore rounds or one in .454 would almost surely incapacitate the typical bad guy.

It's too bad about the pistol, it has terrible capacity. If it held 15-17 rounds I could see it but meh....

I am down for PDW rounds but I want something at a more reasonable price. For now I am going to stick with a Tokarev pistol and get some surplus while it last. It's far from the best but it's better than nothing.

[39flathead]

Large caliber bullets do not cause trauma in case after case that i have seen.

The LA bank robbers were shot numerous times on their body armor with 00 buck and it had no effect whatsoever. For that matter, they were shot in their bodies numerous times with pistol rounds that penetrated the seams in their vest, and that didnt have any effect either.

Do not count on sufficient blunt force trauma to end a fight to occur if you shoot someone, even with a 12 gauge.

Not to nitpick, but 00 buck is not a large caliber round.


I'm thinking a .44 magnum against soft armor is going to make a guy think twice real quick.

The LA shootout guys were wearing multiple layers as well, not what one would typically see.

[jerryg]

I haven't shot my FN 5.7 alot, but I will say it has little to no recoil. You just hold it out there and it stays on target as it was almost nothing. Rent one and you will see for yourself.