Thinking of calibers best suited for use on body armor?

[kimura]

Brassfetcher ballistics labs Summary:

i like how you keep posting about the s4. which isn't being sold. s4 =/= t6. then again, the t6 seems to currently be a moot point, as well... maybe it'll exist someday...


as for the infraction/instigating (lolwut?):

since this is the 2nd time, i realize now that pafoa's perfectly fine with gross misinformation. i think it's absurd that i get an infraction for calling someone out on a fuckload of lies and bullshit.

between this thread and the other one, val claimed:

7.62x25 can’t defeat nij IIIa
owning an ar15 pistol and an ar15 rifle is “constructive intent” (violation of NFA, unregistered SBR)
T6 rounds are available for purchase on 7/26/2012
T6 rounds are backordered on 7/26/2012
T6 aren't/haven’t been halted in may, 2012
nij III is rated to defeat 5.56/5.56 can’t defeat nij III
the materials in plates don’t have any impact on what the plates will stop
a loaded FsN weighs as much as an empty Glock 17
the FiveSeven is cheaper than an ar15 pistol
and other completely false claims

but... i'm the one getting infractions. makes sense, right? surely, calling someone out on his lies is worse than the liar, right?

if this site wants to be clownshoes and home of the mall ninja - so be it. i'm done trying to help out the willfully ignorant.




edit:

I'd like to test some 135gr 10mm max pressure JHP ammo too.

i have 3 boxes of them sitting right here, in philly. if you had integrity, i would have been eager to seen these fail against IIIa (10mm hollow points, instead of fmj, for penetration?)

[GeneralWashington]

It's difficult to get any ammunition that will RELIABLY penetrate body armor on the civilian market for the obvious reasons. Reliably is the key word; yes some rounds will penetrate some vests sometimes. But not all vests are the same, some have more or less wear, not all bullets are the same; there are really too many variables, and that's the last thing I would want with my life on the line. There is no magic round that's going to go in your pistol to always penetrate; I'm a big fan of the 5.7 round and its capabilities, but again, its not a magic round; it won't always penetrate even with the better ammo.

The 5.7 ammo that generated such controversy a few years ago courtesy of the Brady Campaign was criticized because it penetrated a level IIA vest, which is the weakest protection you can get and is no longer recommended. Lets face it, if someone's planning a rampage, they'll likely have IIIA with trauma plates, not some thin little vest that may not stop much. Not to mention, with a IIA vest, you'd be getting extreme trauma even if the rounds didn't penetrate.

Bottom line here is that penetration is going to be largely dependent on the type of vest said hostile has as much as, if not more than, what type of ammunition you have. I see some reasonable arguments (on the net, not necessarily in this thread) for both 5.7 and other rounds penetrating vests, and arguments saying that they don't always penetrate vests; both with some supporting evidence. The truth, as usual, is probably somewhere in between.

Personally, I would be more concerned with choosing a caliber that you can land a number of shots on the target with as that is going to be the best bet to disable a hostile in a vest. Blunt trauma to the torso is still going to slow down or stop a hostile, and can definitely affect their aim. I would prefer to have a backup hi-cap magazine of FMJ for dealing with someone in a vest, and as I already always carry a spare magazine, that's not really a change for me.

Multiple shots from a caliber that you have very good control over would be my thought on the best way to deal with an armored hostile. That or a head-shot. Or a rifle.

All that being said, the 5.7 would still not be a bad choice because it is easy to control the recoil on and it is very high capacity, my concern would be what force the rounds would have if they failed to penetrate, which, again, I consider a decent possibility. As for now, I'll stick with my Glock 23 and hope for the best.

Edit: One other round to consider that they have begun chambering in pistols would be the 45 Long Colt, which was originally a rifle round; not sure what effect that would have but I imagine it'd pack a hell of a punch.

[Valorius]

You can still send in your ammo and have it upgraded to S4M, in lots of 500. That's from Jay directly (as of about 2 months ago).

Anyone that wants to verify that, this is Jay's forum:

http://www.fivesevenforum.com/

FN SS192 and SS198 and SS190 will all also easily defeat a level IIIA, and in the Brassfetcher tests, all three were stated to be shot per shot as effective as a 230gr .45 acp JHP.

Those are the facts.

[Valorius]

It's difficult to get any ammunition that will RELIABLY penetrate body armor on the civilian market for the obvious reasons. Reliably is the key word; yes some rounds will penetrate some vests sometimes. But not all vests are the same, some have more or less wear, not all bullets are the same; there are really too many variables, and that's the last thing I would want with my life on the line. There is no magic round that's going to go in your pistol to always penetrate; I'm a big fan of the 5.7 round and its capabilities, but again, its not a magic round; it won't always penetrate even with the better ammo.

The 5.7 ammo that generated such controversy a few years ago courtesy of the Brady Campaign was criticized because it penetrated a level IIA vest, which is the weakest protection you can get and is no longer recommended. Lets face it, if someone's planning a rampage, they'll likely have IIIA with trauma plates, not some thin little vest that may not stop much. Not to mention, with a IIA vest, you'd be getting extreme trauma even if the rounds didn't penetrate.

Bottom line here is that penetration is going to be largely dependent on the type of vest said hostile has as much as, if not more than, what type of ammunition you have. I see some reasonable arguments (on the net, not necessarily in this thread) for both 5.7 and other rounds penetrating vests, and arguments saying that they don't always penetrate vests; both with some supporting evidence. The truth, as usual, is probably somewhere in between.

Personally, I would be more concerned with choosing a caliber that you can land a number of shots on the target with as that is going to be the best bet to disable a hostile in a vest. Blunt trauma to the torso is still going to slow down or stop a hostile, and can definitely affect their aim. I would prefer to have a backup hi-cap magazine of FMJ for dealing with someone in a vest, and as I already always carry a spare magazine, that's not really a change for me.

Multiple shots from a caliber that you have very good control over would be my thought on the best way to deal with an armored hostile. That or a head-shot. Or a rifle.

All that being said, the 5.7 would still not be a bad choice because it is easy to control the recoil on and it is very high capacity, my concern would be what force the rounds would have if they failed to penetrate, which, again, I consider a decent possibility. As for now, I'll stick with my Glock 23 and hope for the best.

S4M SS192, SS198 and SS190 will all penetrate a IIIA with every single shot.

In the test i did, SS192 penetrated 48 layers of Kevlar- 4 stacked IIA's.

Not sure where you got your info, but you need to watch the videos i posted.



Further, there is overwhelming evidence that blunt trauma to a vest will not stop an attacker. The LA bank robbers were both hit with dozens of projectiles- including numerous projectiles that actually penetrated their armor- and neither was stopped for a full half hour plus.

The ONLY round in 5.7mm that won't penetrate a IIA is FN SS197SR. Elite Protector I, which is the same 40gr Vmax but about 200fps faster, will easily defeat a lvl II vest.

Here is a video of that:



The videos speak for themselves.

[knight0334]

Thread closed. There has been too many reported posts in this thread.

Everyone move on to other topics.

[PennsyPlinker]

i like how you keep posting about the s4. which isn't being sold. s4 =/= t6. then again, the t6 seems to currently be a moot point, as well... maybe it'll exist someday...


as for the infraction/instigating (lolwut?):

since this is the 2nd time, i realize now that pafoa's perfectly fine with gross misinformation. i think it's absurd that i get an infraction for calling someone out on a fuckload of lies and bullshit.

between this thread and the other one, val claimed:

7.62x25 can’t defeat nij IIIa
owning an ar15 pistol and an ar15 rifle is “constructive intent” (violation of NFA, unregistered SBR)
T6 rounds are available for purchase on 7/26/2012
T6 rounds are backordered on 7/26/2012
T6 aren't/haven’t been halted in may, 2012
nij III is rated to defeat 5.56/5.56 can’t defeat nij III
the materials in plates don’t have any impact on what the plates will stop
a loaded FsN weighs as much as an empty Glock 17
the FiveSeven is cheaper than an ar15 pistol
and other completely false claims

but... i'm the one getting infractions. makes sense, right? surely, calling someone out on his lies is worse than the liar, right?

if this site wants to be clownshoes and home of the mall ninja - so be it. i'm done trying to help out the willfully ignorant.




edit:



i have 3 boxes of them sitting right here, in philly. if you had integrity, i would have been eager to seen these fail against IIIa (10mm hollow points, instead of fmj, for penetration?)

Since you want to whine about it in public...

You got your time out for personal attacks, just like I mentioned in the note you received. It is not up to me to parse everyone's information down to the last jot and tittle and rule on claims and counterclaims. It is my job to make you play nice. If you can't, you will get a longer vacation.