Thinking of calibers best suited for use on body armor?

[kimura]

You really are an angry person, aren't you?

and there's the evasion and ignorance, right on schedule!

To anyone else:

You're gonna have to wait to get T6, it's on backorder.

but wait... just a couple MINUTES ago, you said it's "available" and can NOW be purchased!?

You can get Elte S4M right now by sending in your old SS192/195/198, in lots of 500. This stuff is extremely effective in gel tests and will easily defeat -several- level IIIA panels. You can buy that today.

wait, you can buy it today? your own statement does not affirm this. it sounds like you can TRADE for it if you have these other rounds, in lots of 500. which may or may not even be true, since your track record so far is... well, almost purely bullshit.

Beyond that, Elite offers Protector I, II, III, IV, and various other rounds, all of which are considerably hotter than any of the FN offerings available.

this, coming from the one who used more scare tactics ('3a vests are only $75, what criminal can't afford that?') to support 5.7 BS... and now you're talking about ammo that can't even defeat YOUR OWN stated purpose for it (defeating 3a armor)!? HAHAHAHAHAHA.

UBER FAIL.

In FN offerings, if you can find SS192 or 198 or 195LF white box, each of those have performance such that when i tested SS192 (2100fps, same as 195LF white box, and 100fps less than 198) it defeated 4 stacked 12 layer IIA kevlar panels....48 layers total penetration.

wait, wait, wait... you've backpedaled from IIIa to II.... and now from II to IIa?!

GAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

So yes...the Five SeveN is a joke...it's not like you can go out and buy numerous loads right now today that will defeat a IIIA. Oh...wait....yes you can.

the 5.7 isn't a joke. it's a niche/gimmick gun. seems like a fun plinker.

YOU'RE the joke. you're the one that is now (again, just like the ar15 pistol thread) backpedaling from YOUR OWN statements. again. see a pattern?

[Valorius]

I said S4M and T6 can be ordered now. I was not aware T6 was on backorder, so sue me, i am not paid by the company to keep track of the instock status of their items.

The fact that its on backorder ought to tell you something though....that there are lots of FsN owners out there that already have it.

I personally think S4M is superior, but there is no source for the 28gr OTM bullet other than pulled bullets from FN ammo. That's why Jay developed the T6 on his own.

As for the rest, youre wrong, your 'expert' has never tested 5.7mm, i posted ACTUAL VIDEOS vs armor and gel that back my claims. I also posted the results of the Brassfetcher Gel tests, which were extremely favorable.

Because i'm awesome.

I have backpedalled from no claims, you just have a very hard time following along. I simply listed the performance of VARIOUS 5.7mm rounds vs armor.

S4M, SS192, 195LF WB, 198 and 190 will ALL defeat IIIA and you can get any of them right now online if you look around a little (the five seven forums classified section is a great place to find them). S4M can be ordered online right now from Elite if you send in your ammo for an upgrade.

Did you watch the S4M video? I'll bet not.

And what are you going to say when the T6 is no longer backordered? It's a new round...it's very common for new ammo to be backordered. It's amazing to see someone place their entire misguided argument on the fact that a particular round (which is only one of many that will defeat IIIA) is on backorder. (As per Elite website: T6 production is waiting on a shipment of new bullets)

o.O

[kimura]

I said S4M and T6 can be ordered now. I was not aware T6 was on backorder, so sue me, i am not paid by the company to keep track of the instock status of their items.

but you're paid by them to spam propaganda?

also, stop lying and backpedaling. it's NOT on backorder. you don't seem to know what the word means. backorder means that it can be ordered, for claim to future availability. it straight up says "Unavailable," and offers no backorder option.

The fact that its on backorder ought to tell you something though....that there are lots of FsN owners out there that already have it.

AGAIN - it's NOT on backorder. it's "halted."

consult a dictionary.

I personally think S4M is superior, but there is no source for the 28gr OTM bullet other than pulled bullets from FN ammo. That's why Jay developed the T6 on his own.

*facepalm*

you're telling people to buy a round (to defeat IIIa) that's "unavailable," that has no signs of ever being made, and with no evidence of defeating IIIa. stop acting butthurt about being called out for being full of shit. you ARE full of shit.

As for the rest, youre wrong, your 'expert' has never tested 5.7mm, i posted ACTUAL VIDEOS vs armor and gel that back my claims. I also posted the results of the Brassfetcher Gel tests, which were extremely favorable.

Because i'm awesome.

what? you posted about A DIFFERENT ROUND penetrating OLD kevlar.

i'm wrong? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. it's possible. but it certainly doesn't seem that way, and you've literally provided NOTHING to suggest it.

again, YOUR OWN SOURCES DENY YOUR CLAIMS.

[Valorius]

By the way, if you reload, you can load Barnes copper solids up to penetrate over 100 layers of Kevlar plus. Think i'm BSing? Call Clark Custom Ammo and ask the owner. He is a really nice guy and loves to chat.

He won't even sell the round because it penetrates so much. But any handloader can roll his own. 100 layers of kevlar plus.

You could order the components and have thousands of rounds loaded within a week. Right now.

Production of T6 is not halted. NEW ORDERS ARE NOT BEING ACCEPTED BECAUSE THE BACKLOG OF EXISTING ORDERS IS HUGE.
(I already posted the link to the Five Seven forums, jay posts there, feel free to ask him yourself)

Haha, i love trolls.

Did you watch the S4M video? Cause you know...i only posted full color high def proof it defeats IIIA.

LOL

And you can get S4M, you just have to send in your ammo to be upgraded. I have almost 500rds of S4M in my possession right now.

Did you read the Brassfetcher report? Did you watch the brassfetcher video?

I guess they're 5.7 fanboi's too, eh? LOL.

Tell you what, bring a lvl IIIA vest of your choice to Doubletap in Philly, and i will shoot it all full of holes for you with Elite S4M and FN SS192.

SERIOUSLY, THERE IS NO PROOF OF S4M EVER BEING MADE? ARE YOU INSANE? LOL!!!!

LOL!!!!

Picture of my Five Seven with S4M pictured, among other rounds:



Pictured: FN SS192, FN SS197SR, Elite Protector I, Elite Protector II, Elite S4M

[kimura]

By the way, if you reload, you can load Barnes copper solids up to penetrate over 100 layers of Kevlar plus. Think i'm BSing? Call Clark Custom Ammo and ask the owner. He is a really nice guy and loves to chat.

He won't even sell the round because it penetrates so much. But any handloader can roll his own. 100 layers of kevlar plus.

You could order the components and have thousands of rounds loaded within a week. Right now.

wow. supposed information from someone who isn't selling them and isn't talking about them? yeah. thanks. i'll give him a call! i'm sure he appreciates strangers calling him because some backpedaling bullshitter namedropped him on a forum he's probably not even on!

Production of T6 is not halted. NEW ORDERS ARE NOT BEING ACCEPTED BECAUSE THE BACKLOG IS HUGE.

Haha, i love trolls.

holy mother of hell.

DIRECT QUOTE FROM ELITE'S OWN T6 PAGE:

http://www.eliteammunition.net/catal...65/9240580.htm

Unavailable

We are currently waiting on the first batch of bullets to come in from our new sub-contractor after having to fire our now former sub-contractor. Unfortunately at this time I cannot give a date(May 29, 2012)

Sales have been halted on the T6 temporarily until current orders have been filled(May 6, 2012-9:00 P.M.)

see? there you go, AGAIN. you insult me and accuse me of being a troll. while you lie and post absolute bullshit, clearly refuted by the very source you're pretending to cite.

HALTED. yes. exactly as i claimed. exactly as i quoted. you're wrong. again. you're full of shit. again. as usual. and just like last time - i don't merely say it, i prove it. your own sources prove it.



edit: videos? wtf are you talking about? videos for what - rounds that today you said were "available" (they're not) and then "backordered" (they're not) that you claim defeat IIIa because... you think so (hahaha)? what are videos going to prove? that no one can buy them? and the only videos i saw were of gel tests. WHICH HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH NIJ IIIa.

SERIOUSLY, THERE IS NO PROOF OF S4M EVER BEING MADE? ARE YOU INSANE? LOL!!!!

what? i never said that, you're delusional. they obviously WERE (past tense) made. you were just telling people to buy them from elite - WHO DON'T SELL THEM, ANYMORE. and don't appear to make them, anymore.

do i need to draw you a map to your own bullshit claims in this thread? you seem to have forgotten them, already.

[Valorius]

I think you have a hard time understanding what several words in the English language actually mean. Shrug, whatever.

Brassfetcher summary of S4M:

http://www.eliteammunition.net/f/Eli...ce_Summary.pdf

You can still get S4M from elite, any interested parties should call Jay and ask him yourself. I just inquired about more S4M about 2 months ago and he said no problem, just send in your ammo.

Anyone that is skeptical of the performance of S4M, just watch the video i posted. It speaks for itself.

This video shows S4M performance vs bare gel, demin/gel, and against IIIA armor/gel. Of course you have to actually WATCH the video to see the results:

[LifeInPa]

happy? sure, if evasive temper-tantrums are "happy."

You have some serious anger issues buddy. If you really had valid points you wouldn't need to act like such a child on an open forum towards someone who is discussing the subject in a civilized manor. I am by far no fanboy for FNH as I find their products way over-priced but they deserve credit on the 5.7 round, academic and real world scenarios show what a potent round it is.

So far I learned a lot from this thread, I am greatful for the contributions of Valorius and the other members who joined in on the conversation in an adult manor. Finally I would like to thank the members who repped me for creating the thread. Hopefully someday we can see actual test of 357 Magnum and SIG rounds loaded with these 80 grain bullets at maximum pressures.

[Valorius]

If anyone wants to load a batch of 80gr Barnes SCHP's in .357 sig or .357 mag or both and come to doubletap for tests, i will happily provide both fiberglass hard plate armor in 1/4", 3/8" and 1/2" thicknesses, as well as a level IIIA safariland vest (about 15 years old) for us to test.

I'd like to test some 135gr 10mm max pressure JHP ammo too.

We can video it and post the results. If anyone is interested in loading those rounds, shoot me a PM.

As for the availability of any Elite round, i would suggest contacting Jay (Panzer) on the five seven forums and asking him directly.

http://www.fivesevenforum.com/

He's a good guy, and there are a lot of very knowledgeable posters there when it comes to the 5.7x28mm.

[rwb1500]

How is this thread still open? Well, I guess the instigator got a time out, but good God that was painful.

[Valorius]

Brassfetcher ballistics labs Summary:


"Conversely, the FN SS-195 and the Elite Ammunition S4M offer performance quite similar to the tested
.45ACP, with considerably lower recoil and ammunition weight, coupled with a significantly higher weapon
magazine capacity. We feel that the Elite Ammunition S4M can be seen as a “+P” version of the very effective
27gr 5.7mm FMJ and we have no qualms about recommending this cartridge as a feasible replacement to the
more conventional .45ACP handgun, for use against human attackers."

http://www.eliteammunition.net/f/Eli...ce_Summary.pdf

Unlike the well known expert that trashes the Five Seven despite HAVING NEVER EVEN SHOT ONE OR TESTED A SINGLE ROUND, the experts that did test it have a much, much different opinion on the round.

In head to head tests, NATO also found the 5.7x28mm to be superior to the HK 4.6mm PDW round. The PS90 and 5.7mm were about to be adopted as NATO standards, but Germany blocked the move politically because their own 4.6mm round was not selected.

A company called Duece45S also sells several types of loaded 5.7mm ammuntion that is considerably hotter than the FN offerings:

http://deuce45s.com/index.php?main_p...ex&cPath=52_49