Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #11
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    Default Re: Pittsburgh-Area Lawyer Needed To Fight Purchase Denial

    Quote Originally Posted by joshcogar View Post
    Does anyone know if it is admissible for a 302 to prohibit the purchase of a firearm if the 302 was 1. when I was minor (15 years old) 2. about 20 years ago? Right now I'm having problems finding a trace of the records.

    Thanks for any help in advance.
    An involuntary commitment at any age doesn't expire. ...it isn't like some convictions prior to your 18th birthday.

    If you were 302'd - you're prohibited for life. Well, until that involuntary commitment is expunged in court.
    RIP: SFN, 1861, twoeggsup, Lambo, jamesjo, JayBell, 32 Magnum, Pro2A, mrwildroot, dregan, Frenchy, Fragger, ungawa, Mtn Jack, Grapeshot, R.W.J., PennsyPlinker, Statkowski, Deanimator, roland, aubie515

    Don't end up in my signature!

  2. #12
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    Default Re: Pittsburgh-Area Lawyer Needed To Fight Purchase Denial

    Quote Originally Posted by knight0334 View Post
    An involuntary commitment at any age doesn't expire. ...it isn't like some convictions prior to your 18th birthday.

    If you were 302'd - you're prohibited for life. Well, until that involuntary commitment is expunged in court.
    Can they still expunge them? I know there is no longer restoration of rights for 302s, just not the details. I thought you had to prove something wrong with the original 302.

    NOTE: Things changed in PA around the time this thread was started, not sure if older posts are relevant.
    http://forum.pafoa.org/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=5230&dateline=1441069  448

  3. #13
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    Default Re: Pittsburgh-Area Lawyer Needed To Fight Purchase Denial

    Quote Originally Posted by ungawa View Post
    Can they still expunge them? I know there is no longer restoration of rights for 302s, just not the details. I thought you had to prove something wrong with the original 302.

    NOTE: Things changed in PA around the time this thread was started, not sure if older posts are relevant.
    They can expunge improperly filed 302's because that is set in law. The other involuntary commitments got hosed with that court ruling.
    RIP: SFN, 1861, twoeggsup, Lambo, jamesjo, JayBell, 32 Magnum, Pro2A, mrwildroot, dregan, Frenchy, Fragger, ungawa, Mtn Jack, Grapeshot, R.W.J., PennsyPlinker, Statkowski, Deanimator, roland, aubie515

    Don't end up in my signature!

  4. #14
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    Default Re: Pittsburgh-Area Lawyer Needed To Fight Purchase Denial

    Quote Originally Posted by knight0334 View Post
    They can expunge improperly filed 302's because that is set in law. The other involuntary commitments got hosed with that court ruling.
    That's correct. With Prince's loss in the Keyes case, we all lost the ability to have a Common Pleas Court judge order an expungement as part of the state relief, which we were getting upon a showing that the person was mentally just fine now.

    Now, you have to show a substantive procedural error at the time, which is quite difficult and often a waste of thousands of dollars (well, the lawyers appreciate the donation, but it's a complete waste for the client.) There's case law that says that even if there was a substantial delay between initial admission and the first evaluation, that's often excusable; for example, if you're brought in unconscious or incoherent.
    Attorney Phil Kline, AKA gunlawyer001@gmail.com
    Ce sac n'est pas un jouet.

  5. #15
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    Default Re: Pittsburgh-Area Lawyer Needed To Fight Purchase Denial

    Quote Originally Posted by GunLawyer001 View Post
    That's correct. With Prince's loss in the Keyes case, we all lost the ability to have a Common Pleas Court judge order an expungement as part of the state relief, which we were getting upon a showing that the person was mentally just fine now.

    Now, you have to show a substantive procedural error at the time, which is quite difficult and often a waste of thousands of dollars (well, the lawyers appreciate the donation, but it's a complete waste for the client.) There's case law that says that even if there was a substantial delay between initial admission and the first evaluation, that's often excusable; for example, if you're brought in unconscious or incoherent.
    What if your rights were violated? No choice of voluntary admission, not being allowed use of phone to call a family member (during intake and stay), explanation of patients rights etc.

  6. #16
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    Default Re: Pittsburgh-Area Lawyer Needed To Fight Purchase Denial

    Quote Originally Posted by Still Trying View Post
    What if your rights were violated? No choice of voluntary admission, not being allowed use of phone to call a family member (during intake and stay), explanation of patients rights etc.

    Pretty sure he answered that in his final paragraph.

    If your attorney can show that the rules were not followed you may have a chance. Your idea of "rights" and what the law says may not mesh, so you're going to need records and someone who knows the law to sort it all out.

  7. #17
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    Default Re: Pittsburgh-Area Lawyer Needed To Fight Purchase Denial

    Quote Originally Posted by Still Trying View Post
    What if your rights were violated? No choice of voluntary admission, not being allowed use of phone to call a family member (during intake and stay), explanation of patients rights etc.
    There will certainly be plenty of lawyers willing to make promises, exaggerate their successes, and inflate your chances, but the truth is that it's like planning for your retirement by purchasing lottery tickets. The lawyer will get richer and you will be poorer, that's the most likely outcome with the current courts.

    The underlying problem is that we have a federal law which makes no distinction between "mentally troubled 20 years ago" and "insane right now". We absolutely do need to keep the mentally ill away from guns (and cars, and toddlers, and gasoline...) but Due Process requires that we sort out the mentally ill from the not-mentally-ill. I have enough remaining confidence in our government to hope for decency and respect for the Constitution, and there have been a few cases moving in the right direction, but we're not there yet. My advice is for most people to wait another year, give the government (state & federal) some time to make right what Prince's Keyes case lost for us at the tail end of 2013.

    We need some strong law to keep the insane less dangerous, and allow the sane to exercise all of their enumerated rights. We need to honor Due Process. We need fairness.
    Attorney Phil Kline, AKA gunlawyer001@gmail.com
    Ce sac n'est pas un jouet.

  8. #18
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    Default Re: Pittsburgh-Area Lawyer Needed To Fight Purchase Denial

    This is where I have gotten some of my information from
    http://www.pitt.edu/~kconover/ftp/302-text.pdf

    My other concern is the thousands of wasted dollars statement, and how do you prove something that happened so long ago that all records have been purged?

  9. #19
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    Wallingford, Pennsylvania
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    Default Re: Pittsburgh-Area Lawyer Needed To Fight Purchase Denial

    Quote Originally Posted by Still Trying View Post
    What if your rights were violated? No choice of voluntary admission, not being allowed use of phone to call a family member (during intake and stay), explanation of patients rights etc.
    I know I'm very late on this one, but the Pennsylvania Superior Court ruled in the case In re Kevin Jacobs that the MHPA DOES NOT require that a patient be offered a voluntary admission before starting the involuntary commitment process. It's on page 6 of the opinion. https://law.justia.com/cases/pennsyl...s62001-10.html

    Also, the ATF approved section 6105 (f)(1) on July 1, 2019 so you can have your state and federal firearm rights restored using that procedure now.

  10. #20
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    Default Re: Pittsburgh-Area Lawyer Needed To Fight Purchase Denial

    Quote Originally Posted by GunLawyer001 View Post
    Yeah, I've taught a couple of CLE sessions with him. Sort of slim guy, quiet but very sharp. I don't recall any limp but we mostly just sat on the dais for 7 hours.
    Yeah, nevermind, found out the guy I knew is a big lib
    Jesus is Lord !

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