Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
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    Default About New Jersey and Transporting/Carrying To PA

    We've had enough of these threads here. From this day forward the following applies:

    Until the New Jersey State Supreme Court, the US 3rd District Court, or the Supreme Court of the United States says FOPA(or NJ law)covers transporting in New Jersey to a neighboring state - the text of New Jersey law stands as it is written. Which means NO transporting unless you have a NJ permit, or fall under one of the exemptions in NJ law like to/from a range/hunting location/gunsmith/your place of business.

    And until someone can cite a case from one of the (3) courts named in the paragraph above that specifically supports FOPA or a new state exemption to transport to a neighboring state to merely carry there - the rule is for this site is that any advice given to NJ residents for carrying or transporting to PA must abide by New Jersey law limiting transporting to/from a range, hunting location, gunsmith, or your place of business.


    Also see: http://forum.pafoa.org/concealed-ope...ly-report.html
    Last edited by knight0334; July 25th, 2012 at 01:28 PM.
    RIP: SFN, 1861, twoeggsup, Lambo, jamesjo, JayBell, 32 Magnum, Pro2A, mrwildroot, dregan, Frenchy, Fragger, ungawa, Mtn Jack, Grapeshot.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: About New Jersey and Transporting/Carrying To PA

    Would imagine this would apply to transporting to any other state as well, from New Jersey.

    Correct me if I'm wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggies Coach View Post
    Cause white people are awesome. Happy now......LOL.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: About New Jersey and Transporting/Carrying To PA

    Yes, it certainly would.

    However most of our dealings are with PA related questions. Folks should go to a Delaware or New York gun rights website for questions dealing with either of those two states.
    RIP: SFN, 1861, twoeggsup, Lambo, jamesjo, JayBell, 32 Magnum, Pro2A, mrwildroot, dregan, Frenchy, Fragger, ungawa, Mtn Jack, Grapeshot.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: About New Jersey and Transporting/Carrying To PA

    Either way, whichever state one travels to, leaving Jersey still has those specific exemptions for one to even be able to travel with a firearm from the initial start of the journey, even if the trip were to Vermont. IANAL.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggies Coach View Post
    Cause white people are awesome. Happy now......LOL.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: About New Jersey and Transporting/Carrying To PA

    with all due respect how was this decision made....

    I understand the context of the law.. I have read it a million times over as I USED to live in NJ...

    with that said what you are stating is not correct (in practice at least).. and what I mean is this..

    you are either allowed to leave NJ with your gun.. or you are not unless going DIRECTLY to an exempted location..
    people fly out of NJ with handguns on a DAILY basis, these are situations where they are OBVIOUSLY not going directly to and from a place of exemption..

    If the intention of enforcement was that you may ONLY travel out of the state going directly to and from a place of exemption this practice of travel would be completely disallowed, when I contacted the NJSP firearms division they stated that my understanding of the law was correct and that I may take my personal property with me when traveling out of state but that if I were bringing my guns to PA I had to comply with PA laws once I left the state. They made no indication that I was not allowed to travel out of state with my cased unloaded handgun...

    I understand that you do not want random idiots bringing handguns to PA just for the sake of walking around with a handgun... but regardless of how the law may be written.. NJ in practice appears to abide by FOPA in the sense that at the origin of a NJ residents trip (his property) he may legally posses and carry said gun.. and at his destination (in this case PA)... he can do the same..

    if this were not the case air travel would be impossible.. and that is just not the case..

    so again.. no disrespect intended.. but how are you arriving at this conclusion..
    Last edited by vladtepes; July 22nd, 2012 at 11:51 PM.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: About New Jersey and Transporting/Carrying To PA

    Quote Originally Posted by vladtepes View Post
    with all due respect how was this decision made....

    I understand the context of the law.. I have read it a million times over as I USED to live in NJ...

    with that said what you are stating is not correct (in practice at least).. and what I mean is this..

    you are either allowed to leave NJ with your gun.. or you are not unless going DIRECTLY to an exempted location..
    people fly out of NJ with handguns on a DAILY basis, these are situations where they are OBVIOUSLY not going directly to and from a place of exemption..

    If the intention of enforcement was that you may ONLY travel out of the state going directly to and from a place of exemption this practice of travel would be completely disallowed, when I contacted the NJSP firearms division they stated that my understanding of the law was correct and that I may take my personal property with me when traveling out of state but that if I were bringing my guns to PA I had to comply with PA laws once I left the state. They made no indication that I was not allowed to travel out of state with my cased unloaded handgun...

    I understand that you do not want random idiots bringing handguns to PA just for the sake of walking around with a handgun... but regardless of how the law may be written.. NJ in practice appears to abide by FOPA in the sense that at the origin of a NJ residents trip (his property) he may legally posses and carry said gun.. and at his destination (in this case PA)... he can do the same..

    if this were not the case air travel would be impossible.. and that is just not the case..

    so again.. no disrespect intended.. but how are you arriving at this conclusion..
    I agree with Vlad on this as i was a NJ resident as well. NJ laws are very vague thus requiring a lawyer. Heck, the State Police of NJ don't understand the laws. As a previous NJ resident, when I went into Philly, I would carry. There ain't a chance in heck that I was going into Philadelphia without carrying.

    I think it would be better suited to advise NJ residents to check with their local and state officials regarding this matter and let them know we are all supporting the same cause. we're all on the same side wanting the 2A for ALL law abiding citizens! We need each other to be united especially now that the Supreme court is challenging the 2A. If that happens, we're all in a world of hurt.

    Lets start supporting each other.

    As Ben Franklin said "We need top hang together or most assuredly we'll hang alone".

  7. #7
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    Exclamation Re: About New Jersey and Transporting/Carrying To PA


    Sir:

    With all due respect to both the Forum site owners, and as a new Forum member, I am making the following recommendation not with the intent of violation any rule (though I recognize ignorance would not be a defense to such a violation): The "Final" authority that would control the actions of any State or Territory of the United States is found in Title 18, United States Code. It provides definitive conditions and requirements for interstate transportation of a firearm, and precludes state, territorial and other local laws to the extent as governed by applicable U.S. Constitutional sections and provisions. I know that there may be other questions and conditions that may be addressed by individuals, and I am also aware that some political subdivisions, and their law enforcement agencies may take, or have taken, an aggressive stance, and/or enforcement policies that require absolute and strict compliance with such sections of the United States Code, and Code of Federal Regulations, and not being an attorney, nor being qualified as to providing legal advice or counsel (any such interpretation of what has been written herein would be misinterpreted should the reader attempt to apply it in such a manner, and I specifically disavow any attempt to so construe what is being stated herein, further advising that one seek counsel as appropriate for any jurisdiction within which one may carry, or consider carrying at any time in the future). In summary, I might suggest that you do use the specific sections of the U.S.C. that were written to provide for, and to specifically address interstate transportation of firearms, be they handguns and/or long guns, and the dicta and Congressional legislative history when seeking an advisory opinion. I do know that many persons have utilized a terminal destination within the State of Vermont in conjunction with these statutes, however, as a layman, I might suggest that should you intend to do so that your route of travel at the time of any interaction with law enforcement officers or police authorities be consistent with travel to or from such a venue. One might have a greater degree of difficulty in asserting such an affirmative defense to prosecution should an such interaction happen, for example, while you are westbound in I-70 near the state line after departing from your home in Gettysburg.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: About New Jersey and Transporting/Carrying To PA

    Quote Originally Posted by ExplEngineer View Post
    Sir:

    With all due respect to both the Forum site owners, and as a new Forum member, I am making the following recommendation not with the intent of violation any rule (though I recognize ignorance would not be a defense to such a violation): The "Final" authority that would control the actions of any State or Territory of the United States is found in Title 18, United States Code. It provides definitive conditions and requirements for interstate transportation of a firearm, and precludes state, territorial and other local laws to the extent as governed by applicable U.S. Constitutional sections and provisions.
    As a new member here, you probably are not aware that on this forum there exists a lengthy dissertation on why the author believes the provisions of the FOPA do not apply to any travel from one state to any other state immediately contiguous to the state of origin. In short, the author's view is that the FOPA applies only while traveling through intervening states, and not in the state of origin or the state of destination.

    If that view is correct, it means that NJ state law limiting the circumstances under which a NJ resident may lawfully transport a firearm is fully applicable to transporting a firearm across the state line into PA.

    I believe the intent of the super moderator's decree above is simply to stop well-intended but possibly overly zealous people from encouraging NJ residents to engage in actions which may turn out to be illegal.

    I have read the opinion at length. It is thoroughly researched, and I give the author credit for doing his homework. I do not agree with his conclusion but, not being independently wealthy, I am not in a position to become a voluntary test case.

    Simply stated, lacking more definitive legal authority I think knight0334 is just saying, "Let's all assume that New Jersey laws apply in New Jersey until proven otherwise."

  9. #9
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    Default Re: About New Jersey and Transporting/Carrying To PA

    Quote Originally Posted by Greywolf View Post
    As a new member here, you probably are not aware that on this forum there exists a lengthy dissertation on why the author believes the provisions of the FOPA do not apply to any travel from one state to any other state immediately contiguous to the state of origin. In short, the author's view is that the FOPA applies only while traveling through intervening states, and not in the state of origin or the state of destination.

    If that view is correct, it means that NJ state law limiting the circumstances under which a NJ resident may lawfully transport a firearm is fully applicable to transporting a firearm across the state line into PA.

    I believe the intent of the super moderator's decree above is simply to stop well-intended but possibly overly zealous people from encouraging NJ residents to engage in actions which may turn out to be illegal.

    I have read the opinion at length. It is thoroughly researched, and I give the author credit for doing his homework. I do not agree with his conclusion but, not being independently wealthy, I am not in a position to become a voluntary test case.

    Simply stated, lacking more definitive legal authority I think knight0334 is just saying, "Let's all assume that New Jersey laws apply in New Jersey until proven otherwise."

    the problem with just assuming laws limit freedoms is that all that stance does is hurt law abiding citizens.. I no longer live in NJ and therefore am not out to "prove a point".. but if you really want to be fair about it.. then make a statement removing liability... state "PAFOA is not a definitive source for legal advise.. therefore we can not tell you with absolute certainty if a given activity is legal or illegal.... you must take the advice given here as that simple advice..."... The problem IMO is when you use the position as a staff member to assert that it is in fact illegal, and to ban any further discussion.... that course does not benefit the firearms community..

    I am not trying to tell anyone how to run their site.. just simply stating that a neutral view would be far more fair..

    obviously many people have pointed out why at least in practice the law is NOT being enforced to mean directly to and from place of exemption when leaving the state..

  10. #10
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    Default Re: About New Jersey and Transporting/Carrying To PA

    Quote Originally Posted by vladtepes View Post
    the problem with just assuming laws limit freedoms is that all that stance does is hurt law abiding citizens.. I no longer live in NJ and therefore am not out to "prove a point".. but if you really want to be fair about it.. then make a statement removing liability... state "PAFOA is not a definitive source for legal advise.. therefore we can not tell you with absolute certainty if a given activity is legal or illegal.... you must take the advice given here as that simple advice..."... The problem IMO is when you use the position as a staff member to assert that it is in fact illegal, and to ban any further discussion.... that course does not benefit the firearms community..

    I am not trying to tell anyone how to run their site.. just simply stating that a neutral view would be far more fair..

    obviously many people have pointed out why at least in practice the law is NOT being enforced to mean directly to and from place of exemption when leaving the state..
    I agree with knight0334 and Greywolf in their postings.

    What they are saying, in effect, is that the NJ transport scenario from NJ to Pa for licensed CC/OC purposes is indeed a violation of NJ law - that is incontrovertible.

    The issue then rises to whether there is a viable affirmative defense under Federal law (18 USC 926A) to a prosecution under those very NJ statutes. That is the indeterminate part of the 'debate' and, until there is a judicial determination at either the state or Federal level, an averment of legality (as some have done in other threads) is ill-advised and rightfully necessitated the moderator's edict.

    I don't speak for knight0334 but I don't think he has foreclosed anyone from further debating the issue by introducing corroborative documentary evidence supporting one conclusion or the other but unsupported 'yeah - it's legal' and anecdotal suppositions are not allowed. There is a perception of lack of enforcement and that could be attributed to many reasons but one should not use such anecdotal 'evidence' as dispositive as to the 'legality' (by Federal pre-emption).
    Last edited by tl_3237; August 20th, 2012 at 06:14 PM. Reason: typo
    IANAL

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