Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #21
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    Default Re: About New Jersey and Transporting/Carrying To PA

    Quote Originally Posted by twency View Post
    Here's the problem, I think. Most of the folks involved in this discussion aren't arguing that a superseding federal law would have no effect if it were in conflict with state law.

    They're saying that the particular federal law under discussion doesn't apply to this particular situation, so there's no conflict between the laws and consequently no federal preemption of state law.
    There is no real evidence that the federal law doesn't apply. If anything, federal automatically supersedes state.

    Where are the people that have been charged and convicted? Are there any? Has anyone ever been charged at all for the practice of taking a handgun from NJ under federal transport laws, then CCing here?

    Has that ever happened? If the answer is no, it's pretty compelling evidence that the practice is accepted by the authorities.

    Quote Originally Posted by vladtepes View Post
    the problem is this.. you can't have it both ways.. the argument is that it does not start till you leave your home state..
    FOPA starts at your home.. or it does not..

    if it starts at your home.. then in this instance the gun is legal to own and carry at the point of origin (in your home in NJ), and would be legal at the destination as well (in PA).. and in that case.. covered..

    if it does not start at your home.. EVERY person who has ever traveled out of state with a gun MUST be going to an exempted location directly from their home in NJ.. the problem with this is that people fly out of NJ all the time with guns and return tickets that are days away (obviously not directly to or from any exempted location)..

    the argument is NOT if you have to travel through multiple states..
    the argument is instead if it starts at your home or when you cross the border..

    as observed in practice.. it starts at your home..
    I agree with this position completely.
    Last edited by Valorius; August 21st, 2012 at 10:05 AM.

  2. #22
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    Default Re: About New Jersey and Transporting/Carrying To PA

    Quote Originally Posted by Valorius View Post
    There is no real evidence that the federal law doesn't apply. If anything, federal automatically supersedes state.
    I don't see anyone arguing that federal law can't supersede state law. I see arguments that the federal law as written and intended doesn't apply in the first place to this situation, so it doesn't supersede because it's not intended to.

    Personally, I've argued in the past that under the plain and statutory definitions of "interstate travel" that FOPA should apply to anyone who is legal at the start and end of his trip as long as he crosses a state line in the process, particularly given how congress and the courts have interpreted the "interstate commerce" clause of the U. S. Constitution in the past. But tl_3237 and others may be right that a court would find differently based on the legislative history of the FOPA.
    Last edited by twency; August 21st, 2012 at 10:22 AM.
    I am not a lawyer. Nothing I say or write is legal advice.

  3. #23
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    Default Re: About New Jersey and Transporting/Carrying To PA

    I can see no way in which a federal transportation of firearms law designed to govern interstate travel does not apply to the interstate transportation of firearms.

    The way the actual enforcement of the law has worked thus far, from all that i can find, is that if you cross the border into another state, the federal protection kicks in, and the entire trip is covered from the moment you leave your door step.

    If this was not the case, there would be examples we could point to of people that have been pinched for it, and prosecuted. As far as i know, we can point to no such people, because no one has been prosecuted in such a situation. Is that correct?

  4. #24
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    Default Re: About New Jersey and Transporting/Carrying To PA

    Why not just ask Nappen?

  5. #25
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    Default Re: About New Jersey and Transporting/Carrying To PA

    926A states where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm. The argument that one can lawfully possess and carry a firearm in one’s home could meet what is set in 926A. The laws of NJ apply to those carrying on business, or pleasure within the state of NJ, and this would apply to those exemptions that allow transport of firearms within the state of NJ.

    Interstate travel means traveling to another state by crossing a state line, not just multiple state lines. If the intent of one is to leave the state, without any other business, or diversions while in transit, it could be argued that FOPA gives leeway for this transit if transporting a firearm. Once across state lines, the next state’s laws would have effect, if it were the destination state.

    Now the kick is, NJ doesn’t have a law that prohibits transporting a firearm interstate that I’m aware.

    So, if someone has really deep pockets ($100,000 +) they could set precedent.

    The above statement is conjecture and not meant to be legal advice, because after I talked to an attorney about the meaning of all other legal purposes, the attorney stated, that would be a judicial opinion, and would cost a small fortune if the opinion did not favor me and I wanted to fight it. I would rather spend a small fortune on ammo and go shooting.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggies Coach View Post
    Cause white people are awesome. Happy now......LOL.

  6. #26
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    Default Re: About New Jersey and Transporting/Carrying To PA

    Quote Originally Posted by Gun View Post
    926A states where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm. The argument that one can lawfully possess and carry a firearm in one’s home could meet what is set in 926A. The laws of NJ apply to those carrying on business, or pleasure within the state of NJ, and this would apply to those exemptions that allow transport of firearms within the state of NJ.

    Interstate travel means traveling to another state by crossing a state line, not just multiple state lines. If the intent of one is to leave the state, without any other business, or diversions while in transit, it could be argued that FOPA gives leeway for this transit if transporting a firearm. Once across state lines, the next state’s laws would have effect, if it were the destination state.

    Now the kick is, NJ doesn’t have a law that prohibits transporting a firearm interstate that I’m aware.

    So, if someone has really deep pockets ($100,000 +) they could set precedent.

    The above statement is conjecture and not meant to be legal advice, because after I talked to an attorney about the meaning of all other legal purposes, the attorney stated, that would be a judicial opinion, and would cost a small fortune if the opinion did not favor me and I wanted to fight it. I would rather spend a small fortune on ammo and go shooting.
    Most everything that you have conjectured has been addressed in the sticky:
    http://forum.pafoa.org/concealed-ope...ly-report.html

    Although I agree that, until we have a judicial determination there is no conclusive disposition, the information provided in the aforementioned thread does provide compelling suggestions to the contrary of your suppositions.
    IANAL

  7. #27
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    Default Re: About New Jersey and Transporting/Carrying To PA

    That's funny, a friend and I both just flew out of Atlantic City to Florida and back not too long ago. Swarm swarm swarm.....didn't happen. Not going to happen, ever.
    The answer to a fool is silence.

  8. #28
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    Default Re: About New Jersey and Transporting/Carrying To PA

    Quote Originally Posted by thefirstndsecond View Post
    Why not just ask Nappen?
    Already did.....
    The answer to a fool is silence.

  9. #29
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    Default Re: About New Jersey and Transporting/Carrying To PA

    Quote Originally Posted by Tequila Sunrise View Post
    Already did.....
    Here in the Lehigh Valley there are boatloads of people that shoot at Phillipsburg Pistol Club. If all the rhetoric and BS was true all the police would have to do is watch for Pa plates to leave the club. Bang busted, yet in the years it's been open there hasn't been one story in the news.

    TS what was Nappen's opinion.

  10. #30
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    Default Re: About New Jersey and Transporting/Carrying To PA

    Quote Originally Posted by Tequila Sunrise View Post
    That's funny, a friend and I both just flew out of Atlantic City to Florida and back not too long ago. Swarm swarm swarm.....didn't happen. Not going to happen, ever.
    Might want to check out the 3rd Circuit decision late last year which says that one cannot garner 926A protection if the firearms are removed from transporting vehicle such as when one is changing the mode of transportation including being afoot walking from the car to the airport counter and the reverse of same. When one is afoot and possesses the firearm, even if TSA standards are met, he becomes subject to the laws of the state/locality in which he is present. 926A ONLY provides protection while the firearm is properly stored continuously in a VEHICLE (assumption all other qualifications are met).

    It is plain from the latter condition that the statute protects only transportation of a firearm in a vehicle, and requires that the firearm and ammunition be neither readily nor directly accessible from the passenger compartment of such vehicle. In particular, the word "such," in "such transporting vehicle," by definition refers back to earlier part(s) of the sentence, and the only parts it could possibly refer to are the parts referring to the transportation of a firearm or ammunition. The use of "such" therefore makes clear that the transportation the statute protects must occur in a "transporting vehicle."

    Moreover, if there were any doubt about the statute's vehicular limitation, the final part of the sentence that follows — the "Provided" clause — again makes clear that only vehicular transportation is included in the statutory grant. It states: "Provided, That in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driver's compartment the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console." 18 U.S.C. § 926A (emphasis supplied). This clause, on its face, presupposes transportation of the firearm in a vehicle.

    It follows from this plain meaning that an ambulatory plaintiff who intends to transit through Newark Airport is outside the coverage of the statute.
    ASSOCIATION OF NEW JERSEY RIFLE AND PISTOL CLUBS INC. v. Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, Court of Appeals, 3rd Circuit 2013
    Last edited by tl_3237; April 10th, 2014 at 07:51 PM.
    IANAL

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