Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #11
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    Default Re: About New Jersey and Transporting/Carrying To PA

    Quote Originally Posted by tl_3237 View Post
    I agree with knight0334 and Greywolf in their postings.

    What they are saying, in effect, is that the NJ transport scenario from NJ to Pa for licensed CC/OC purposes is indeed a violation of NJ law - that is incontrovertible.

    The issue then rises to whether there is a viable affirmative defense under Federal law (18 USC 926A) to a prosecution under those very NJ statutes. That is the indeterminate part of the 'debate' and, until there is a judicial determination at either the state or Federal level, an averment of legality (as some have done in other threads) is ill-advised and rightfully necessitated the moderator's edict.

    I don't speak for knight0334 but I don't think he has foreclosed anyone from further debating the issue by introducing corroborative documentary evidence supporting one conclusion of the other but unsupported 'yeah - it's legal' and anecdotal suppositions are not allowed. There is a perception of lack of enforcement and that could be attributed to many reasons but one should not use such anecdotal 'evidence' as dispositive as to the 'legality' (by Federal pre-emption).
    Spot on..

    What is forbidden is saying it is ok to transport without irrefutable proof that it is legal.

    If you have something in writing, or link to legal text or case law - sure, you can claim otherwise.

    Without proof otherwise, no one is at this site is to say it is legal without a NJ carry permit(except for NJ's exempted reasons).

    This site does not need to get sued because someone said it is legal, all due to some person getting arrested and convicted of a New Jersey felony. I will be sure to pass along the user's sign-up info and IP addresses to the civil suit plaintiff if it were to happen to redirect any suit from PAFOA.

    If a person wants to practice law here at PAFOA, they better be a member of the Bar and licensed to practice. Otherwise, any legal advice given should be to the strictest adherence to the law. ...ie: if there is a gray area, go with the advice that cannot put a person in prison.
    RIP: SFN, 1861, twoeggsup, Lambo, jamesjo, JayBell, 32 Magnum, Pro2A, mrwildroot, dregan, Frenchy, Fragger, ungawa, Mtn Jack, Grapeshot, R.W.J.

    Don't end up in my signature!

  2. #12
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    Wink Re: About New Jersey and Transporting/Carrying To PA

    Fair enough... I understand the reasoning.. I respectfully assume the stance that there is no legal grounds that would prevent you from taking a gun out of state because of what I stated earlier.. it either starts at your doorstep.. or it does not.. if it does.. then it doesn't matter if you are flying to FL or driving to PA.. if it does not.. then there are a whole lot of violations happening on a daily basis... my point was simply that in practice.. if you are LEAVING the state NJ has historically done nothing to stop you from transporting a firearm unloaded and cased... to look for a case study is moot because well.. to put it simply.. they are not prosecuting people... legality is not ALWAYS verified by case law...

    I respect your tolerance of my posting.. it is not intended to be argumentative or disrespectful, it is just intended to offer the situation as I see it..

  3. #13
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    Default Re: About New Jersey and Transporting/Carrying To PA

    Not true for me, yesterday

    I got pulled over on my bike by a NJ State Trooper yesterday with a pistol in a side case. I was on my way from my wifes house in NJ to my house in PA. Long story.

    He asked for the firearms ID card. I gave him my PA CC, I know it is not what he asked for, but we don't have that type of card and I wanted him to see I had some paperwork. Cops love paperwork. He said it wasn't valid in NJ, and I said it is pointless because it has nothing to do with an owner permit. He was a cool dude looking at how fast I was speeding. First day out on the bike all year, and I would do it again.

    So he did tow my bike because my paperwork was all shitty, but he was nice enough to drop me off at a gas station, with my gun, and played music I liked as well!! country music in NJ is extra smiles.

    I still dislike NJ and most police, but he was a good dude.

  4. #14
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    Default Re: About New Jersey and Transporting/Carrying To PA

    I apologize for my error. I had tried to clearly state that nothing said therein was to be construed as legal advice, nor was I an attorney licensed to practice in any state. My more customary disavowal is:

    Legal Notice: This message does not constitute legal or other professional advice, nor does it create an Attorney/Client, or other confidential or fiduciary relationship between the sender and/or any other party

    Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail (including attachments) is covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U. S. C., Sections 2510-2521, and is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed, and may contain confidential or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure, dissemination, copying, forwarding or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. If you are the intended recipient but do not wish to receive communications through this medium please so advise the sender immediately.

    Electronic Transmission Security Notice: Email transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of the message that arise as a result of its electronic (e-mail) transmission.
    ©2011 -

    Again, no disrespect intended, it is just that it is important to me that no one other than myself, or a client who has retained me and vested a degree of trust in my abilities and accepted my expertise in a specific matter, act predicated upon what I have said, or appeared to say, believing it to be authoritative or applicable to a specific question or issue. What my original intent was to share a portion of the significant amount of training that I/we had back in my other work life as a Special Agent of the old U.S. Treasury Department's Bureau of ATF (note the absence of the "E"), which as one might surmise has been a long time ago having retired after 25 yrs more than 10 years ago, although I do spend a considerable amount of time in and around the courtroom in both U.S. District Courts and many states Courts of original (trial) jurisdiction in both criminal and civil matters. From what I have read so far in this particular thread, I should be quite happy not to have included New Jersey within the venues in which I have testified as an expert witness on these and other non-firearms [most of my career was in the areas of fire and explosives investigations, which was probably for the best as I watched an agency where many, if not most of the Special Agents were firearms enthusiasts (& competitive shooters) evolve into "the 'Brady Bunch'" where military and competitive firearms experience was no longer considered to be an asset should one not ascribe to the "company line" (again, this not intended to be a general criticism of the old BATF, it simply behaved in a manner that most scholars who have studied, or continue to study the organizational behavior of administrative and enforcement agencies, most particularly at the Federal level would be considered to be a typical attempt to expand their jurisdiction, and their relative degree of importance within the Cabinet in which they exist). Gun Control, at each juncture where it has the propensity for growth that become an opportunity for bureaucratic expansion, pay grade creep, the opportunity to endorse legislation that is politically viable at the specific time and place where there is broad Executive Branch enthusiasm and interest (one need only study the changes in organization and advancement of bureaucratic control and authority that occurred when the old Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms Division of the IRS became the independent BATF, at the time of the passing of the Gun Control Act of 1968 to begin the weaving of a web of authority and control over persons who possess, sell, transfer, etc. firearms, as well as the manufacturers thereof utilizing the omnipresent vehicle in virtuallly all 20th Century expansion of authority and span of control, the Interstate Commerce Clause of the U.S. Constitution. Through a series of SCOTUS decisions, the Congress of the United States began to believe that they could micro-manage events and exercise greater control over its citizens, much has been written as to the motivation of the Executive Branch, utilizing its "co-equal" Legislative and Judicial Brances, and its efforts in furtherance thereof so I shall eschew repeating them and perhaps in doing so contaminating an academic exercise with political values, by appending the words "in and affecting Interstate Commerce" to the end of any monitoring or controlling statutes or regulations as if by saying it, it would in all cases simply become accepted as truth. Again, the applicability of this simple phrase to any specific statute pertaining to individual rights of possession outside of what most non-legal scholars of the post 1920's Twentieth Century by simply stating that if a firearms is manufactured in one state, and at one time in its history it has crossed a state line into another state it is henceforth and forever to be considered to be in and/or affecting interstate commerce. I would have t say that I have oft wondered how, if or when anything that is not grown, raised from whelping, or manufactured within the state of one's residence and NEVER, EVER, taken across a state line can be other than "in or affecting interstate commerce", but again I am not an attorney nor licensed to express legal opinions in any state so I shall leave that conclusion to those who hold requisite qualifications. Simply put, however, it has been the position of the Federal government, as conveyed by that esteemed virtuous concept of Stare Decisis (which I believe translates into SCOTUS Justices are infallible, as well as universally authoritative, therefore no one other than another Justice should ever be able to question presume to question, challenge or reverse that which has been a majority opinion of the then current constituency endowed with the auspicious powers of the black robe and wooden hammer, no wig required on this side of the Atlantic Ocean).

    All of this having been said in humble deference to those of greater education or qualification as the predicate for my hypothesis that Federal law would prevail and supercede contravening state or territorial law when a conflict is found to exist. Again, my apologies for both the length, and terrible lack of any skills in proofreading and as a new contribuor I have located the spellcheck function but not as of yet the grammatical equivalent thereof I can only ask the indulgence of the reader, if I have not as of yet bored them to the point of discontinuing to read this humble discourse should errors in violation of proper usage of language, syntax, etc., fragmentary or run-on sentences, etc. be found herein. I do need to perhaps assure the Forum Administrator once again that there is no sarcasm or disrespect intended, unfortunately I would have to plead guilty to any charges of anachronistic style of writing and expression, something that can be readily attested to by several past Graduate Assistant who suffered greatly during the course of our cumulatively sharing the academic experience. If need be, please find only humor in my manner of expression, particularly in light of the fact that as a new contributor to (and member of) this Forum, it may take several instances of my "contributing to a discussion or thread" for said administrator to recognize the sincerity of my assurance that nothing untoward is either implied or expressed in my posting(s)

  5. #15
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    Default Re: About New Jersey and Transporting/Carrying To PA

    Quote Originally Posted by ExplEngineer View Post
    ...my hypothesis that Federal law would prevail and supercede contravening state or territorial law when a conflict is found to exist...
    Here's the problem, I think. Most of the folks involved in this discussion aren't arguing that a superseding federal law would have no effect if it were in conflict with state law.

    They're saying that the particular federal law under discussion doesn't apply to this particular situation, so there's no conflict between the laws and consequently no federal preemption of state law.
    I am not a lawyer. Nothing I say or write is legal advice.

  6. #16
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    Default Re: About New Jersey and Transporting/Carrying To PA

    Eschew obfuscation.
    While many claim to support the right, precious few support the practice.

  7. #17
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    Default Re: About New Jersey and Transporting/Carrying To PA

    Quote Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
    Eschew obfuscation.
    And circumlocution.
    I am not a lawyer. Nothing I say or write is legal advice.

  8. #18
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    Default Re: About New Jersey and Transporting/Carrying To PA

    Quote Originally Posted by twency View Post
    Here's the problem, I think. Most of the folks involved in this discussion aren't arguing that a superseding federal law would have no effect if it were in conflict with state law.

    They're saying that the particular federal law under discussion doesn't apply to this particular situation, so there's no conflict between the laws and consequently no federal preemption of state law.

    the problem is this.. you can't have it both ways.. the argument is that it does not start till you leave your home state..
    FOPA starts at your home.. or it does not..

    if it starts at your home.. then in this instance the gun is legal to own and carry at the point of origin (in your home in NJ), and would be legal at the destination as well (in PA).. and in that case.. covered..

    if it does not start at your home.. EVERY person who has ever traveled out of state with a gun MUST be going to an exempted location directly from their home in NJ.. the problem with this is that people fly out of NJ all the time with guns and return tickets that are days away (obviously not directly to or from any exempted location)..

    the argument is NOT if you have to travel through multiple states..
    the argument is instead if it starts at your home or when you cross the border..

    as observed in practice.. it starts at your home..

  9. #19
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    Default Re: About New Jersey and Transporting/Carrying To PA

    Going to NJ is like going to a whole another country where the laws are much different than the rest of the country.

    Where the laws wording is not crystal clear, written vaguely, room for selective illegal interpretation you are left to the lenience of the courts, a friendly LEO or a understanding prosecutor to give you a break or being able to afford to hire a lawyer that can off the legal hook, when the full force of the letter of the law can be selectively applied to you or your actions without any criminal intent.

    It wasnít some invading army wearing blue berets , that conquered NJ with the sword, it was the elected legislators and the apathy of the people of NJ and the NJ gun owners themselves that let them take their rights, and freedoms by the pen. That wouldnít organize, put their difference aside, to fight against a common foe that leaves anyone crossing into , departing, passing through or living in NJ jurisdiction a potential statutory criminal, if caught with any violation of the letter of the law.

    PA , any state or the country is always a election or two away from having this them happen to them, IF people are not willing to personally legislatively fight to keep the rights we inherited by birth, that our ancestors paid with spilling of their blood, loses of pieces of their bodies , some gave all with their lives. Their Freedoms was that valuable to them, and IF this generation, the next one, or future donít have that burning desire to keep their rights, they have no one to blame except themselves, when they are taken

    Because any unjust law written on paper with enough support, can be, amended, repealed, or just flat out deleted, take your case to the courts for adjudacation of a readdress of a grievous just like our rights, can be taken with a stroke of the pen, without our silent consent.

    We have a republic article four section four, IF we can keep it, trouble is when those elected to office donít respect the checks and balances written in the constitution, without that respect the enumerated powers have no limitation to areas they wish to legislate. Everyone that directly works in government at any level , local state or federal, they all work for US, they just seem to have forgetten their position exist for US for our benefit, not the other way around.

    Activate or Abdicate the choice is yours on the course of freedom for you and your posterity

    BTW fighting for freedom ,take up lots of your time, is great and feels real good when you win a battle or two but the pay real suxs



    Many thanks to the all the Moderators on PAFOA for taking the bull by the horns by trying to illustrate the legislatively created legal nightmare in NJ for gun owners.


    Special thanks to tl_3237 for trying to clarify, document and organize all the info about this problem when entering or leaving the NJ firearm unfriendly zone.
    Learn how to really SUPPORT the 2nd Amendment cause Go To http://www.foac-pac.org/

  10. #20
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    Default Re: About New Jersey and Transporting/Carrying To PA

    Quote Originally Posted by knight0334 View Post
    This site does not need to get sued because someone said it is legal, all due to some person getting arrested and convicted of a New Jersey felony. I will be sure to pass along the user's sign-up info and IP addresses to the civil suit plaintiff if it were to happen to redirect any suit from PAFOA.
    Have you or any other representative of PAFOA engaged in this behavior in the past?

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