Expert advice on selecting a handgun

[joe15003]

I carry a Taurus pt145. They are small compact handguns in a .45. I love it tho. I like the feel of the power

[mark775]

Thank you. I learned some stuff and very thought-provoking.

[gunguy]

Hi,

Check Charter Arms homepage for a write up on revolvers for personal self defense. www.charterfirearms.com

[synergy]

Hi,

Check Charter Arms homepage for a write up on revolvers for personal self defense. www.charterfirearms.com

Your first post here is a plug for a company?

Thanks but no thanks.

[gunguy]

Good for you, not learning something new is always best.

[synergy]

Good for you, not learning something new is always best.

What exactly is it that's on that website that you think I don't know?

Why do you pimp a brand on your first post without even giving a specific reason for your plug?

Is it this:
http://www.charterfirearms.com/commu..._revolve1.html

Couldn't have linked that directly, could you?

Let's examine some of it

We at Charter Arms feel (regardless of firearm) that a bright muzzle flash is an advantage in self-defense situations to the defender and a distinct disadvantage to the attacker—shorter barrels deliver a bit more flash.

That is what I like to call "bullshit". More on this to come.

Charter’s compact, lightweight revolvers offer tremendous power-to-size ratios and, due to grip and overall design, they are very easy to draw, point and control.

Also bullshit. Snub nosed revolvers are not easier to use. Every new set of shooters I start finds it easier to hit their target with an auto than a small revolver. So 5 shots out of a hard to shoot gun is a better fighting pistol than a hi-cap, with good sights, a lighter trigger pull which is easier to keep aligned on target, and a MUCH faster reload? Not in the universe I've been living in.

Most shooters, particularly gun experts/writers do NOT buy a short-barreled compact revolver to take to the range and plink, hunt or shoot targets with. Yet many writers will talk about so-called excessive recoil, short sight radiuses, triggers, etc. as though the previously mentioned shooting activities are why the shooter bought the firearm in the first place. In our interviews with consumers at the 2007 NRA Convention we confirmed that these elements are not a concern because of the reasons previously stated.

So it's OKAY that it sucks to shoot, and is hard to use...because we're not gonna use it much. Gotcha.

While Charter Arms revolvers (and other brands) are built to survive firing many thousands of rounds of ammunition over a lifetime, let’s face it: Very few people will ever put more than 1,000 rounds (twenty 50-round boxes) through their handgun. So talking about revolvers or most any handgun as if it will become the person’s next lifetime 10,000-round plinker is really not realistic-interesting maybe-but not realistic. Few of us (excepting competitors) have actually fired even 5,000 rounds of major caliber ammunition through the same handgun.

This is some real smelly bullshit. 1) Charter handguns break out of the box with almost as much frequency as the Jennings/ Bryco's....2) they're advocating not training frequently with their product....good idea! It's OK that their product won't hold up, just don't use it unless you have to...riiight.

Accuracy testing: Many folks talk of conducting handgun accuracy tests at 25 and even 50 yards. Actually, testing short-barreled revolvers at ranges over 10 yards is sort of like testing an over-the-counter hunting rifle at the 1,000-yard line at Camp Perry. Ninety percent of big-game kills are made at ranges under 200 yards which is why most writers (who know their audience and their readers’ abilities) test rifles at 100-200 yards—it’s a realistic test distance.

Mmmm, not interested.
Here's what someone who's opinion is worth reading has to say about handgun accuracy in combat.
http://vickerstactical.com/TacticalTips/Accuracy.aspx

Another question I get frequently asked is what is the acceptable mechanical or intrinsic accuracy for a service pistol or carbine. Meaning what should the weapon/ammo combination be capable of producing from a shooting device or rest that eliminates shooter error. Keep in mind I come from a surgical accuracy oriented special operations background with little margin for error. Based on this and years of experience I have concluded that a service pistol should be capable of head shots at 25 yds and a service carbine should be capable of the same at 100 yds - basically 5 inch groups. However there is a catch; I have found that under conditions of stress a shooter will only be able to shoot to within roughly 50 % of the accuracy potential of a given weapon. And that is only for the best shooters; the majority will not even be close to that. That means in order to achieve my standard of head shots (5 inch groups) at a given distance the weapon/ammo combination needs to be capable of at least 2.5 inch groups.

But what does he know...pff!

Some of my military schools and awards are as follows:
• Operator Training Course
• Special Forces Qualification Course
• Special Forces Military Freefall Course
• Special Operations Target Interdiction Course (SF Sniper School)
• Airborne School
• Infantry Advanced Individual Training
• Jumpmaster School
• Military Freefall Jumpmaster School

and numerous other military schools and courses.

Awards and badges include:
• Bronze Star with 'V' device for actions in Panama
• Joint Service Commendation medal with 'V' device for actions during Desert Storm
• Defense Meritorious Service Medal
• Meritorious Service Medal
• Combat Infantrymans badge
• Military Freefall Badge
• Special Forces Tab

Industry certifications and awards:

• FBI certified firearms instructor
• Secret Service certified firearms instructor - high shooter award in my class
• NRA certified firearms instructor
• National Defense Industrial Association (NDIA) 2003 Carlos Hathcock award recipient - this award is given for excellence in the end user community for outstanding contributions in small arms training and weapons development. I am proud to be the first special operations community recipient of the award.

Competition arena accomplishments:

I have had the privilege to train with several of the best competition shooters in the US including Rob Leatham, Jerry Barnhart, Mike Voight, and John Shaw. I consider many of them friends and want to publicly thank them for their contributions for helping me become a better shooter. I shot competitively as a hobby for several years. I have many state and regional awards and championships. I will only list some of the highlights:

• Top Ten finisher at USPSA Limited Nationals in 1993 & 1994
• Two time top CDP shooter at IDPA Winter Nationals
• Two time top 5 finisher in my class at IDPA Nationals
• Founding member of International Defensive Pistol Association (IDPA)
• IDPA Vickers Count scoring system is named after me -I did not originate it however; I learned it from Rob Leatham (an interesting story in itself)
• Master Class USPSA Limited Shooter
• Master Class IDPA shooter in CDP, ESP, and SSP

Pistolsmithing accomplishments:

When I decided to pursue 1911 pistolsmithing as a hobby I was fortunate that my good friends Ken Hackathorn and John Miller took me under their wings and showed me what made a 1911 tick. In addition, Steve Nastoff gave me input and Dick Heinie really stepped up and helped me out, eventually sponsoring my membership into the American Pistolsmiths Guild. Once again let me publicly thank these individuals for their help. I was also fortunate to be in a Unit where more .45 ACP ammo is shot out of 1911 style pistols than any other place in the world; the ultimate test bed. I learned alot in the 15 years I was at 1st SFOD-Delta about what it takes to make a 1911 work reliably and how to keep it running. I also want to thank the individuals who work in the arms room at the Unit; they will remain nameless but I learned alot from them on making a 1911 run.

• Member American Pistolsmiths Guild
• Named 'Most Sought after 1911 Pistolsmith' by American Handgunner magazine
• Key player in refining the Unit 1911 service pistols and developing better end user training and maintanence techniques
• Key player in influencing several 1911 vendors for better designed components; Vendors I have had input with include but are not limited to Caspian Arms, Springfield Inc.,and Wilson Combat.
• I have built pistols for many of the key people in the 1911 business including Bill Wilson, Chip McCormick, Ken Hackathorn, Rob Leatham, and Dick Heinie

But that's enough about that...lets move on.

Revolvers are generally recognized by most experts as safer to operate than semi-automatics.

That's just too damn funny. Considering you risk serious injury if your fingers extend past the cylinders during firing! Funny how I took jackets from rounds fired out of time, to the face, from standing behind a shooter firing...you guessed it...a Charter Arms revolver...out of time, out of the box.

Any trainer will tell you that revolvers require far less training than semi-autos to fire accurately and safely, thus making them the best firearm for the average citizen for self-defense purposes.

Those same trainers will also tell you its harder to hit your target with a shorty revolver, and it takes FAR more training to reload them in defensive situations. Hence the Hackathorn quote "The definition of an optimist is someone carrying a j-frame and a reload".

While high-capacity autos are popular, well known shooters like Jeff Cooper and many other professional shooters have argued for years (and we paraphrase) it’s accuracy that counts, not all of those high-capacity magazine, liability loaded, people-and- property damaging misses

So capacity doesn't matter?....see post #1 in this thread.

Another big flash advantage in low light, is that the flash silhouettes the defender’s sights. This can help the defender adjust quickly for a second shot

lol...well so much for accuracy. Night sights are just a gimmick I guess then... We've all been swindled!!!

Wanna read up on what two experts on low light shooting have been teaching in their classes?
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=16114

Revolvers deliver the ability to be quickly drawn with a nearly perfect properly registered grasp (draw fast, hit the brakes and shoot effectively) without any other process complications and with maximum reliability and sufficient stopping power.

Is that right? No one told me that. I have seen hammers hang up on clothing plenty of times.

So, how does a revolver draw faster than my Glock? Really, I'd like to know. Does carrying a revolver somehow alter the space/ time continuum? If so, I want in on that!

[Suburban]

Those same trainers will also tell you its harder to hit your target with a shorty revolver, and it takes FAR more training to reload them in defensive situations. Hence the Hackathorn quote "The definition of an optimist is someone carrying a j-frame and a reload".

I haven't heard that before. That went straight to my big list o' quotes.

[synergy]

I haven't heard that before. That went straight to my big list o' quotes.

I paraphrased, as I've heard it repeated with slightly different wording a few times.
http://www.familyfriendsfirearms.com...hp/t-1038.html
There is 1 example of it.

[gunguy]

To Synergy, See, you did go and look -- figured you would; took a few things out of context to try to win your point too which helps me understand your real world gunfighting experience, figured you would do that too.

However, given that you released much of what would be in your DD-214 plus the vast and nearly unending claimed experience you have you certainly should not be afraid to give all of us out here in worship land your real name (at the least) and to factually impress us further the units and years. Heck, if you graduated from Q you might tell us which groups you were in. Now you may say you will do it if I do (we both know better), but you are the one touting it to impress as well as being a grand wiz blogger blogger (is that like a 6th degree black belt?) with over 1,100 blogs to your credit (do you stamp those on the side of your computer like they do with shootdowns on aircraft?).

I am new to this blogging thing and obviously do not know who to worship or not, help me Obeonekanobe let's see what ya got.

Regardless, thanks for the background on your vast and heroic expreience. When in Group we would simply stop the problem and move smartly on and that is my plan for you. Simply to not reply further with someone who obviously has too much time on his hands and nothing better to do with it. Recoil damage is a terrible thing. Have a nice life Synergy.

[JoeWilliams]

I find revolvers perfectly adequate for self defense needs. In fact, every time I've actually needed a sidearm to defend myself it happened to be a revolver on my side, or in my hand, at the time. The gun I carry most of the time is a 3" Ruger SP101 .357, and my proficiency with it is such that I have no doubt as to my chances of victory should it ever be called on to be anything other than the target shooting gun that is all it's had to be so far.

I usually recommend a 3"-4" barrelled .38 Special or .357 revolver to new shooters. I'm particularly fond of the S&W Model 10. It's a gun that has served police and citizens well and faithfully for decades, the cartridge is adequate with +P loads, and the .38s are a ton of fun to practice with. The revolver is easier to teach and learn for new shooters, and satisfying and fun for more experienced shooters. Plus, you can still find lots of used Model 10s available for fantastic prices. There is nothing fancy or "gee-whiz" about a Model 10. It's simply a time-tested and proven tool.

I do NOT recommend 2-2 1/2 inch barrelled revolvers to new shooters. They are simply harder to learn and use.

I don't have any particular hard on for or against semi-autos, which are preferred by my wife. One issue to be considered with revolvers is that many women have problems with the long double action pull. It can certainly be mastered, but hand/finger strength is a definite consideration, and the trigger of the XD and Smith M&P is far easier for her to handle.