M1 Garand

[psuhorn]

Hey all,

So I am new to the gun collecting market and have only recently started collecting. Right now I made a contact that has a Springfield Gararnd with 1,75x,xxx serial number. The gun also is import mark free. He also has what he is saying that he has MANY wwII marked en-blocs more than you'll see in the picture. My question is what do you think a package like this is worth in todays market.

[Xringshooter]

Hey all,

So I am new to the gun collecting market and have only recently started collecting. Right now I made a contact that has a Springfield Grand with 1,75x,xxx,xxx serial number. The gun also is import mark free. He also has what he is saying that he has MANY wwII marked en-blocs more than you'll see in the picture. My question is what do you think a package like this is worth in todays market.

First off, it is Garand, not Grand. Second, I think you added too many x's, to the serial number, there weren't 1 3/4 Billion Garands produced.

There is not a good way to estimate the value without knowing a lot more info. Is this a CMP Garand? If so, he would/should have the certificate of authenticity. What grade is it (collector, correct, service, field, etc.)? What is the muzzle and throat erosion like. Does it have all the same numbers on the pieces. Has it been rebuilt?

A good Garand primer would be to go to the CMP website

http://odcmp.com/Sales/m1garand.htm

You can learn what to look for when buying a Garand. Also, the Garand Collectors Association ($25 per year) is a great place for Garand info and history.

[psuhorn]

Sorry about that. My phone auto corrected to Grand instead of Garand. Ok so the seller says it is correct grade with an erosion of 3. It has not been rebuilt and it is not matching all the way through.

[Dasbalddog]

Sorry about that. My phone auto corrected to Grand instead of Garand. Ok so the seller says it is correct grade with an erosion of 3. It has not been rebuilt and it is not matching all the way through.

Correct me, someone, if I am wrong... But if the numbers aren't correct... Then it can't be a correct grade, yes?

If not a correct grade, maximum of $625 unless the rifle has something rare/special about it such as a genuine cartouched stock or rare parts.

[psuhorn]

Ok, so I am confused now because I am hearing different things from people via messages. With (for example) a German Luger each individual part should be stamped with the last 2 numbers of the original serial number. Is it the same way with a Garand? When I take it apart how can I tell if the other parts match the original 1943 serial number on the top? Also with the stock...if you look at the pictures it is a lighter stock. Did they make original stocks that looked like this?

[BearTitan]

If he bought the rifle from CMP, as a correct grade, he paid over $1K. If he has the documentation proving that it is a CMP correct grade, then I would value it at about $1200, since they are hard to come by. They aren't making any more of those!

Without the documentation, I would not pay more than service grade prices. In that case, I would offer him $600.

The ammo in enbloc clips from WWII is not worth any more than any other ammo. They made a lot of ammo back then, and buying it surplus is easy to do. CMP is a good source for that. I have bought Greek, South Korean, and Lake City .30 cal ammo from CMP over the years. All of it has shot fairly well out of my rifles.

[Xringshooter]

Ok, so I am confused now because I am hearing different things from people via messages. With (for example) a German Luger each individual part should be stamped with the last 2 numbers of the original serial number. Is it the same way with a Garand? When I take it apart how can I tell if the other parts match the original 1943 serial number on the top? Also with the stock...if you look at the pictures it is a lighter stock. Did they make original stocks that looked like this?

On the stock - look for the cartouches (stamps in the wood) - there should be several different types and some may be faint. If there are none, then the stock is not original and so it wouldn't be a "correct" grade.

Here is the grading criteria from CMP:

CMP GARAND GRADING CRITERIA

RACK GRADE: (Fair)
Rack Grade Rifles. Most of these rifles have been refinished or rebuilt at least once while in military service and will likely have some parts from other manufacturers. Rifle wear will be exhibited by worn and mixed colors of the finish; there may be some minor pitting on the metal parts; wood will be basically sound but may be well used with minor hairline cracks, poor fit, and many dings, scratches and gouges; wood may not match in color, type of wood or condition. These rifles may have some foreign parts and wood may be Walnut, Birch, Beech or other variety. Rifles do not have import marks. Bores will be generally good with only minor imperfections; the barrel crown may be nicked, and the muzzle may gauge more than “3” on muzzle gauge. The Throat Erosion will gauge more than “5”The overall appearance and condition of the rack grade will generally be rougher than any other grade. Fair condition.

Manufacturer selection only guarantees the receiver was produced by the manufacturer listed. The barrel and the other parts may have been produced by other manufacturers.

FIELD GRADE: (Fair to Good)
Field Grade Rifles. Most of these rifles have been refinished or rebuilt at least once while in military service and will likely have some parts from other manufacturers. Fair to good condition. Rifle wear will be exhibited by worn and mixed colors of the finish; there may be some minor pitting on the metal parts; wood will be basically sound but may be well used with minor hairline cracks, and many dings, scratches and gouges; wood may not match in color, type of wood or condition. These rifles may have some foreign parts and wood may be Walnut, Birch, Beech or other variety. Rifles do not have import marks. Bores will be generally good with only minor imperfections; the barrel crown may be nicked, and the muzzle may gauge more than “3” on muzzle gauge. The Throat Erosion will gauge less than 5 – well within US Army standards. Do not expect rifles in mint condition in this grade.

Manufacturer selection only guarantees the receiver was produced by the manufacturer listed. The barrel and the other parts may have been produced by other manufacturers.

SERVICE GRADE: (Good to Very Good)
Service Grade Rifles show less wear and better appearance than Field or Rack Grades. Good to very good condition. Rifle wear will be exhibited by worn and mixed colors of the parkerized finish. There may be some minor pitting on the metal parts. Wood will be either Walnut, Birch, Beech or other variety and will be basically sound but may have minor hairline cracks, dings, scratches and gouges. Wood may not match in color or type of wood. Wood may be of new production on Service Grade Garands. Bores will be generally good with only minor imperfections. The barrel crown may be nicked, but the muzzle will gauge "3 or less" and the throat erosion will gauge less than 5.

Manufacturer selection only guarantees the receiver was produced by the manufacturer listed. The barrel and the other parts may have been produced by other manufacturers.

CORRECT GRADE: (Very Good to Excellent)
Correct Grade Rifles are similar to the Service Grade (above), but will show less wear and use. Correct Grade rifles will have all correct parts for the date of manufacture with 80% or better overall original metal finish. The stock and handguards will be of walnut and correct for the rifle but will have some dings, dents, scratches and marring of the wood finish. Stocks will have the appropriate original inspector's cartouche. The rifle bore will be very good with no significant defects and with a throat erosion of less than 4 and a muzzle wear of 2 or less. Very good to excellent condition. Limited quantities are occasionally available.

COLLECTOR GRADE: (Excellent)
Collector Grade Rifles have 95% or better overall original metal finish. Rifle bores are excellent with throat erosion under 3 and muzzle wear of 2 or less. Collector Grade rifles have all original parts as they came from the manufacturer. Wood will have a few handling marks and minor dings and scratches. Stocks have the appropriate inspector's cartouche. Data sheets prepared by CMP armorers are included in the butt trap of each Collector Grade Rifle. Excellent condition - little or no use. Limited quantities are occasionally available.

[bortle]

Garand's only have one serial number on the heel of the receiver. That will tell you the date it was made.
The barrel will have a date stamped in it under the op-rod. That should match the receiver date within a month or 2.
Then you get to the numbers on the bolt. Certain lot numbers for certain months/years of manufacture.
Then you get into the op-rod and all the other little parts. Made by many contractors and sub-contractors during the war. They all fit and they all work. But they may not be "correct" for that specific date of manufacture. It gets very confusing.

CMP is the best/cheapest way to get a Garand.

[BearTitan]

The barrel will have a date stamped in it under the op-rod. That should match the receiver date within a month or 2.

If you find one with matching parts, close in manufacture date, hang onto it. That means the rifle was never arsenal rebuilt (or the owner sourced a barrel with a close date). If you find one that is an original build, that was never torn apart at the arsenal, those are extremely rare and beyond correct or collector grade and the bidding would begin in the five digits.

[Noah_Zark]

Ok, so I am confused now because I am hearing different things from people via messages. With (for example) a German Luger each individual part should be stamped with the last 2 numbers of the original serial number. Is it the same way with a Garand? When I take it apart how can I tell if the other parts match the original 1943 serial number on the top? Also with the stock...if you look at the pictures it is a lighter stock. Did they make original stocks that looked like this?

Garands are NOT serial numbered the same as Lugers; there is ONLY ONE serial number on an M1 Rifle, and that is on the heel of the receiver behind the rear sight.

In order for an M1 Rifle to be "correct," all the drawing numbers for the major parts (e.g., hammer, trigger housing, safety lever, operating rod, etc.) have to have the correct suffix or "dash number" for production made at the time of the receiver, or for a month or two afterward. You need a website dedicated to the M1 Rifle, or a collector's handbook to run all of those parts down.

Then comes the minor parts which are mostly unmarked but have certain features which have been traced to specific production times.

All that said, the vast majority of ALL M1 Rifles were rebuilt following WWII and again after Korea. Many of the rifles sold by the CMP were lent to Denmark, Greece, Italy, and other countries and THOSE countries exchanged parts as needed. Virtually every M1 Rifle that is "correct" was returned to "correct" condition by swapping parts.

For example, the stock on the M1 Rifle in the OP is birch. A birch stock is NOT correct for a 1,7 Million Springfield M1 Rifle. Birch stocks were replacement stocks made post WWII for replacement of damaged or worn original walnut stocks. So right off the bat the M1 Rifle in the OP is NOT "correct," without looking at any parts.

Many people get wrapped around the axle about an M1 Rifle needing to be "correct," and that's a bunch of bullshit. IMO, the muzzle needs to gauge below 2, and the throat below 4 and the barreled action needs to clamp tightly to the stock when the trigger guard is closed and the rifle will probably shoot just fine. I look for condition, condition, condition, and as far as I'm concerned, "parts is parts" if they are in as-new or nearly as-new condition.

I've bought Service Grade M1 Rifles from the CMP North Store in person, and each one has a muzzle wear of 0.5 or less. The rifling at the crown is razor-sharp, and the lands still have broach marks. It don't get any newer than that. Each one of the M1 Rifles in my personal rack will hit 1.0 to 1.25 MOA off the bench. I can easily put eight rounds onto a 16" gong at the 440 yd berm (400 meters) offhand, all day, any day. And "correctness" ain't got a thing to do with it.

Don't get sucked up into "correctness" and end up overpaying for something that it ends up not being. There are lots and lots of M1 Rifles out there with "incorrect" parts being passed off to uninformed buyers as "correct." As for the rifle in the OP, in my opinion and experience it is "incorrect" due to the birch stock and who knows what other metal parts, and it should be priced NOT MORE than $800, and the ammo not more than 50 cents a round. M1 en bloc clips are $1.00 each at any gun show, and $0.50 each if you haggle.

You're doing the right thing, getting educated. Don't rush into a purchase without knowing exactly what you're buying.

Noah