Turned away for PHL LTCF Application: Advice?

[ay82]

Preface: a senior member here is in the process of asking their legal counsel about this on my behalf, but I figured I'd ask if anyone here has possibly dealt with a similar situation before and might have some first-hand experience/advice that they could share.

Update July 6th: Big thanks to ViperGTS19801 and GunLawyer001 for their help, and to everyone who posted here for their advice/help as well! I'll keep y'all updated as this moves along!

Update July 17th: 21 days in and I'm holding camp, waiting for the decision from PPD's GPU to come in the mail. The 45 day window goes till August 11.[/B]

Update August 6th: Approved, and LTCF in hand. Thanks again to everyone! Details
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Back in April, I went to the Philadelphia Permit office to apply for my LTCF.

All my paperwork was in order and I had everything that they sought, barring the naturalization/citizenship certificate. Having been a minor at the time of my parents becoming citizens, I was automatically grandfathered in for my citizenship, and was never issued a certificate directly on my name.

During my visit to the Permit Office, I took the naturalization certificates of both of my parents, my birth certificate (original copy in foreign language as well as notarized English translated copy), US passport, US passport card, and voter registration card, amongst all the other documents that they needed.

However, the agent turned me away saying that I needed my own certificate, telling me that I wasn't eligible to even apply until I got the certificate proving my citizenship, even though I had everything else showing the same. I requested that she please consult her manager, since I'm rarely able to get time off, and I had specifically taken the day off in order to apply. She came back a few minutes later with the same response.

The kicker is that there really isn't any way for me to get the certificate at this point.

Technically (in theory), I could take the citizenship test and reapply to be a citizen, but:
a) that makes no sense, since I'm already a US citizen
and...
b) I contacted USCIS, who flat out told me that since I am a citizen already, I'm not eligible to take the test unless I relinquish my citizenship first

Anyone have advice in dealing with such a situation? I know that Philly sometimes makes up its own rules as it goes, but I'd rather avoid the Florida/Utah route if possible.

Thanks in advance for the help and advice!

[Curmudgeon]

I'm confused. You're saying you are a citizen and Philly is asking you to prove it? I'm a citizen, but no one has ever asked me to prove or document it. What am I missing here?

[ay82]

I'm confused. You're saying you are a citizen and Philly is asking you to prove it? I'm a citizen, but no one has ever asked me to prove or document it. What am I missing here?

Precisely; I am a citizen (been so since the early 2000's), and Philly is specifically saying that I need the actual certificate to prove it to them, and that every other citizenship document (SSN card, US Passport, US Passport Card, Voter ID Card, etc) isn't sufficient.

Technically, the application documentation does state this: "f. Foreign born applicants who are presently American citizens must bring their naturalization papers, passports are not acceptable."

The problem, though, is that I have no way to get that document other than giving up my citizenship and applying for it all over again, which is ludicrous to even think about.

I would think that the certificates of both my parents should cover this aspect, given the fact that USCIS does not issue the certificates to minors at the time of gaining citizenship altogether (or at least did not do so back when we applied).

[Curmudgeon]

Precisely; I am a citizen (been so since the early 2000's), and Philly is specifically saying that I need the actual certificate to prove it to them, and that every other citizenship document (SSN card, US Passport, US Passport Card, Voter ID Card, etc) isn't sufficient.

Technically, the application documentation does state this: "f. Foreign born applicants who are presently American citizens must bring their naturalization papers, passports are not acceptable."

The problem, though, is that I have no way to get that document other than giving up my citizenship and applying for it all over again, which is ludicrous to even think about.

I would think that the certificates of both my parents should cover this aspect, given the fact that USCIS does not issue the certificates to minors at the time of gaining citizenship altogether (or at least did not do so back when we applied).

Ah, now I see. So you are caught in battle of tug-of-war between bureaucracies, both with less than ideal reputations. It would seem that at least one of them is incorrect about what you should need to do, and neither is going to change their respective stand until corrected by some authority they respect. And that authority ain't you.

Your best bet, in my inexperienced opinion, is to become more informed about the details of all laws and requirements pertaining to both organizations, and try to figure out which one is in error. Then you would want to meet with an authority figure at that organization to arrange the correction.

Dealing with the underlings is an exercise in futility. All they are doing is based on what they have been told. Typically it's all they know.

I might suggest attempting to go straight to checking all of this out with the higher-ups in hope of getting this all resolved with a single conversation, but it is still advantageous to go in armed with your own knowledge. Additionally you could try to contact your local PA state rep for help, but I fear they might not prove helpful when it comes to gun permits. They tend to hate anything to do with the lowly citizens having guns.

Hopefully whoever is looking into this for you will prove to be more helpful than I have been. Good luck.
.

[Kurt_D]

My guess is that, probably through an attorney, you'd have to contact INS and get their ruling or documentation on your part. Philly's non-acceptance of a US passport and other supporting documents as citizenship is just another reason I'm glad I don't live there.

Good luck and hope you get it resolved soon.

[ay82]

Thanks for all the advice guys. I'll be trying to get in touch with some of the higher-ups at the permit office to see what they say, in addition to working with the PAFOA member and/or my own legal counsel. If anyone knows any contacts at the office and could PM me, that would be much appreciated.

I did contact the NRA for what it's worth, but they said that it isn't a big enough thing for them to take interest.

Hopefully at least one other member on here has experienced something similar when applying and might be able to provide some insight...

[filgun11]

Precisely; I am a citizen (been so since the early 2000's), and Philly is specifically saying that I need the actual certificate to prove it to them, and that every other citizenship document (SSN card, US Passport, US Passport Card, Voter ID Card, etc) isn't sufficient.

Technically, the application documentation does state this: "f. Foreign born applicants who are presently American citizens must bring their naturalization papers, passports are not acceptable."

The problem, though, is that I have no way to get that document other than giving up my citizenship and applying for it all over again, which is ludicrous to even think about.

I would think that the certificates of both my parents should cover this aspect, given the fact that USCIS does not issue the certificates to minors at the time of gaining citizenship altogether (or at least did not do so back when we applied).

I may not be able to help you with LTCF, but I maybe be able to shed a few lights on immigration stuff.

Based on what you wrote, your parents immigrants and naturalized citizens. I assume they went thru Permanent Residency(Green card) and then Naturalization.

Were you here in US already when they got their Green card? Or Did you arrive in US after they were naturalized. This is important.
If you're in the US already when they got their green card, then you will automatically get the green card. When they applied for their naturalization, they should have applied for you as well (if you're still a minor).

If you're not in the US when they became US citizens, then they should have applied a petition for you(which is approved automatically, no questions.. since they're US citizens). In this scenario, you bypassed the green card stage, and becomes a citizen right away.

In either case, I believe you should have a Naturalization papers.

I'm not a lawyer... just someone who went thru Permanent residency and naturalization years and years ago. Also have a lot of friends with kids who went thru the same thing.

I suggest you consult an immigration lawyer.

Apologize to everyone if off-topic.. just thought I would help the OP.

[ay82]

I may not be able to help you with LTCF, but I maybe be able to shed a few lights on immigration stuff.

Based on what you wrote, your parents immigrants and naturalized citizens. I assume they went thru Permanent Residency(Green card) and then Naturalization.

Were you here in US already when they got their Green card? Or Did you arrive in US after they were naturalized. This is important.
If you're in the US already when they got their green card, then you will automatically get the green card. When they applied for their naturalization, they should have applied for you as well (if you're still a minor).

If you're not in the US when they became US citizens, then they should have applied a petition for you(which is approved automatically, no questions.. since they're US citizens). In this scenario, you bypassed the green card stage, and becomes a citizen right away.

In either case, I believe you should have a Naturalization papers.

I'm not a lawyer... just someone who went thru Permanent residency and naturalization years and years ago. Also have a lot of friends with kids who went thru the same thing.

I suggest you consult an immigration lawyer.

Apologize to everyone if off-topic.. just thought I would help the OP.

Thanks for the detailed response. I will probably be speaking with an immigration attorney tonight, but for the record, here's what's going on:

We've all been here in the US since 1993, when my father was here on an H1-B. Since then, we have had the green cards and got the citizenship back in 2004.

When they applied in 2004, they applied on my behalf as well since I was a minor and they were able to do that via the rules and regulations.

When they received it in 2004, I was given my citizenship and US passport, etc. by virtue of the fact that I was a minor and the naturalization process for my parents encompassed me as well. That being said, no certificate was ever issued on my name. I'm not sure why that is, but I confirmed with my parents on that one.

For that matter, I checked with a two other friends who were in similar situations as me with respect to the naturalization as a minor, and they both confirmed that their parents were issued certificates, but they just received their passport, etc. without any certificate as such.

[filgun11]

Thanks for the detailed response. I will probably be speaking with an immigration attorney tonight, but for the record, here's what's going on:

We've all been here in the US since 1993, when my father was here on an H1-B. Since then, we have had the green cards and got the citizenship back in 2004.

When they applied in 2004, they applied on my behalf as well since I was a minor and they were able to do that via the rules and regulations.

When they received it in 2004, I was given my citizenship and US passport, etc. by virtue of the fact that I was a minor and the naturalization process for my parents encompassed me as well. That being said, no certificate was ever issued on my name. I'm not sure why that is, but I confirmed with my parents on that one.

For that matter, I checked with a two other friends who were in similar situations as me with respect to the naturalization as a minor, and they both confirmed that their parents were issued certificates, but they just received their passport, etc. without any certificate as such.

Okay... I just called couple of my friends who went thru the same process. During application for naturalization, the parents are asked if they want to apply for the kids' own "certificate". It's not required, but recommended. Most parents choose not to opt it, since they will save money... since in the eyes of USCIS they are citizen.
So I think that's what happened in your case.

I just don't understand why some opt not to get it, especially in the days of post 9/11. Any paper showing you're a US Citizen will only help. The certificate's fee is only like $300(at that time(Y2008) according to my friends). Sure, it maybe lot of money for those who have lots of kids ($300per child).

[ay82]

Okay... I just called couple of my friends who went thru the same process. During application for naturalization, the parents are asked if they want to apply for the kids' own "certificate". It's not required, but recommended. Most parents choose not to opt it, since they will save money... since in the eyes of USCIS they are citizen.
So I think that's what happened in your case.

I just don't understand why some opt not to get it, especially in the days of post 9/11. Any paper showing you're a US Citizen will only help. The certificate's fee is only like $300(at that time(Y2008) according to my friends). Sure, it maybe lot of money for those who have lots of kids ($300per child).

Damn. That's a huge chunk of information that I wasn't aware of. Thanks a ton, mate. Really appreciate it.

I agree that in the post-9/11 era, having all sorts of documentation of nationality can only be helpful (especially for a South Asian like me).

I'm probably going to have to go through the immigration lawyer route for sure now, but hopefully there is some way to get the certificate that doesn't require me jumping through hoops.