Handgun shipped from out-of-state priv. individual - FFL legality?

[Atonob]

I bought a gun from one of the major gun auction websites from an out-of-state private individual (we'll call him Bob). I gave him the FFL I would like it transferred to - and Bob said he would ship the gun from his FFL.
Well Bob responds that he has shipped the gun through UPS without going through the FFL. I confirm with his FFL that they didn't ship/process the gun but that they walked Bob through the process. Easy!



I talk to the FFL I chose to use, and they tried to chastise me over the phone for not going through an FFL. I responded that it was completely legal, and that Bob's contact information was with the gun. He responds that if there isn't a clear copy of Bob's driver's license that he'll ship the gun directly to the ATF so that "they can cut it up".

After doing some research - it appears that the FFL only needs Bob's contact info? Is this correct - can anyone verify that the FFL would be in the wrong to ship the gun to the ATF? If anything, wouldn't they refuse shipment and just return it to Bob?




After the attitude and ignorance of my receiving FFL - I am NEVER going to use them again.

[BimmerJon]

http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/568...ten-asked.html

Interstate Handguns: A non-FFL can ONLY ship a handgun to an eligible person through an FFL in any state via common carrier (UPS, FedEx, etc.). A non-FFL CANNOT ship a handgun directly to another non-FFL in a different state. If the receiving FFL WILL NOT accept a handgun from a non-FFL, then the shipper will need to have a FFL ship it for them. A non-FFL CANNOT use USPS to ship a handgun.

Personally... I'd cancel the deal as the seller broke the terms (didnt use FFL)... I'd also NEVER use your FFL again.

[CHEMICAL]

To be an online dealer I believe that "Bob" still has to hold an FFL. That being said I also believe that all the other FFL needs is Bob's FFL number. To say he would ship your gun to the ATF to be cut up would expose him to theft or destruction of property and makes him a complete douchebag.

[Xringshooter]

I bought a gun from one of the major gun auction websites from an out-of-state private individual (we'll call him Bob). I gave him the FFL I would like it transferred to - and Bob said he would ship the gun from his FFL.
Well Bob responds that he has shipped the gun through UPS without going through the FFL. I confirm with his FFL that they didn't ship/process the gun but that they walked Bob through the process. Easy!



I talk to the FFL I chose to use, and they tried to chastise me over the phone for not going through an FFL. I responded that it was completely legal, and that Bob's contact information was with the gun. He responds that if there isn't a clear copy of Bob's driver's license that he'll ship the gun directly to the ATF so that "they can cut it up".

After doing some research - it appears that the FFL only needs Bob's contact info? Is this correct - can anyone verify that the FFL would be in the wrong to ship the gun to the ATF? If anything, wouldn't they refuse shipment and just return it to Bob?

After the attitude and ignorance of my receiving FFL - I am NEVER going to use them again.

One, they should not have chastised you in any way. This was done after the fact, the gun was already in transit and there wasn't anything you could do now.

They would be ENTIRELY in the wrong if they were to do what they threatened. Unless the gun was known to be an illegal gun, or used in a crime, they have no justification to do what they said they would do. If they did I would hammer them in small claims court for the cost of the gun, the shipping cost and any other costs related to their actions (like missing work to go to court, etc.) All they NEED, by law, to accept ANY gun into their inventory, is the name and address (and/or FFL number if coming from an FFL) of where it came from/who sent it. Most would like to have a copy of the non FFL's drivers license, but that is not legally required.

Many FFLs won't accept a gun from a non-FFL, but that is their business decision right or wrong. It is perfectly legal for a non-FFL to ship a gun to any FFL in the US.

[Xringshooter]

To be an online dealer I believe that "Bob" still has to hold an FFL. That being said I also believe that all the other FFL needs is Bob's FFL number. To say he would ship your gun to the ATF to be cut up would expose him to theft or destruction of property and makes him a complete douchebag.

"Bob", from the description that the OP gave is not an online gun dealer, he is a private individual selling a gun on an auction site like GunBroker. As a non-FFL, by law, he can ship a gun (handgun or long gun) to any FFL in the US two different ways.

1. He can ship it himself via UPS, FedEx or USPS (if a long arm) or UPS or FedEx (if a handgun).

2. He can use a FFL to ship the gun for him.

There are FFLs out that that will not accept a shipment from a non-FFL, for whatever reason they want, it is their decision, but there is NO law that says a gun has to be shipped from FFL to FFL ONLY.

FROM THE BATFE:

Q: May a nonlicensee ship a firearm through the U.S. Postal Service?
A nonlicensee may not transfer a firearm to a non-licensed resident of another State. A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. The Postal Service recommends that long guns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun.

[18 U.S.C. 1715, 922(a)(3), 922(a)(5) and 922 (a)(2)(A)]


Q: May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier?
A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]

[Atonob]

If the receiving FFL WILL NOT accept a handgun from a non-FFL, then the shipper will need to have a FFL ship it for them. A non-FFL CANNOT use USPS to ship a handgun.

Are you referring to this part? Because my receiving FFL was a bit ambiguous regarding their store policy. In our phone conversation, he stated something along the lines of "we don't usually like to accept from private individuals, but it has got to have a copy of their drivers license!"

To be an online dealer I believe that "Bob" still has to hold an FFL. That being said I also believe that all the other FFL needs is Bob's FFL number. To say he would ship your gun to the ATF to be cut up would expose him to theft or destruction of property and makes him a complete douchebag.

Bob was just a private individual - this was known all along. I didn't buy it from an online gun store, it was an online gun auction site.

If they did I would hammer them in small claims court for the cost of the gun, the shipping cost and any other costs related to their actions (like missing work to go to court, etc.) All they NEED, by law, to accept ANY gun into their inventory, is the name and address (and/or FFL number if coming from an FFL) of where it came from/who sent it. Most would like to have a copy of the non FFL's drivers license, but that is not legally required.

This is essentially what I had thought. Is there any legal basis for them to ship to the ATF?

[CHEMICAL]

This is essentially what I had thought. Is there any legal basis for them to ship to the ATF?

No. Not unless it is as stated above. Used in a crime...stolen...etc.

[Xringshooter]

Are you referring to this part? Because my receiving FFL was a bit ambiguous regarding their store policy. In our phone conversation, he stated something along the lines of "we don't usually like to accept from private individuals, but it has got to have a copy of their drivers license!"

As an FFL I can say that it's nice to get a copy of the sellers drivers license, but it is not required by law. I just got (today) a FedEx shipment (Ruger Mark II) for a client who bought if from a person on GunBroker and it didn't come with a copy of the DL, but I have the sellers name and address and that's all I need for my records (bound book).

This is essentially what I had thought. Is there any legal basis for them to ship to the ATF?

NO, there is absolutely no legal basis for them to ship it to the ATF. Plus, where (what address) would they ship it? Would they call the ATF first? If they did I would suspect that unless they (the FFL) had proof that it was an illegal firearm, the ATF would tell them just to ship it back to the seller as there would be no reason to ship it to them (the ATF). It sounds to me like this is another FFL that really doesn't know the law (and these are laws that a FFL SHOULD know if for no other reason than to keep themselves out of trouble).

[tlnzz1]

"He responds that if there isn't a clear copy of Bob's driver's license that he'll ship the gun directly to the ATF so that "they can cut it up".


After this is settled and you have your firearm, please post, and share, the name of this FFL holder. "Inquiring minds want to know". What an ass.

[Atonob]

As an FFL I can say that it's nice to get a copy of the sellers drivers license, but it is not required by law. I just got (today) a FedEx shipment (Ruger Mark II) for a client who bought if from a person on GunBroker and it didn't come with a copy of the DL, but I have the sellers name and address and that's all I need for my records (bound book).

I confirmed with the seller that he put a photo of his I.D. in with the handgun, so hopefully the process goes smoothly.

NO, there is absolutely no legal basis for them to ship it to the ATF. Plus, where (what address) would they ship it? Would they call the ATF first? If they did I would suspect that unless they (the FFL) had proof that it was an illegal firearm, the ATF would tell them just to ship it back to the seller as there would be no reason to ship it to them (the ATF). It sounds to me like this is another FFL that really doesn't know the law (and these are laws that a FFL SHOULD know if for no other reason than to keep themselves out of trouble).

That was also my assumption, that if the FFL didn't know who/where the gun was from, they would simply ship it back.

He also made the remark that if they didn't have a copy of the guy's drivers license / didn't know who it belonged to they could only keep it on the premises for 24 hours before getting rid of it. What did he mean by that?

After this is settled and you have your firearm, please post, and share, the name of this FFL holder. "Inquiring minds want to know". What an ass.

I'm giving it serious consideration. I'm usually a very easy-going person, but this whole ordeal has rubbed me the wrong way.