Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
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    Default Situation developing in parents neighborhood, options?

    I wanted to get some opinions on what my family and family friends should be aware of / can do about a situation developing in the neighborhood.

    Backstory, a small neighborhood of about 15 homes. There is one resident who is a known trouble maker, always doing one thing or another, I've even witnessed him punch his own child in the head. He is currently on parole for drug charges and therefore a prohibited person. A family friend in the neighborhood had the opportunity to buy some land in the area which runs behind all the homes. He has asked the neighbors to clear they're stuff of his property but isn't being a douche about it and has been letting them use it as they have been for years for no charge.

    Well this troublemaker had a herd of deer in a small, approx. 25'x25' cage on that property and after being asked to remove them he moved them to another pen that he owns the property of... and bought two horses to keep in the pen. He also bought a shed and had it delivered while he was away and the land owner mentioned to the delivery guys that they were placing the shed on his property without permission. They said they were just doing as the customer asked and the property owner left it at that.

    This is where it gets interesting and where my concern begins. When the delivery guys told the troublemaker about what the land owner had said he waited for the landowner to come home and approached the landowner on his own property while feeding his dogs with a baseball bat. This is a guy who brags how he's a "***** from the streets." I'm not sure exactly what happened at this point, just a vague understanding. The landowner went to his truck to retrieve his pistol, the troublemaker retreated to his home and returned with a shotgun and a standoff ensued. Another neighbor intervened and broke it up and the police were called.

    This is not the first time there has been issues with the troublemaker where the police were called. To name a few that I personally remember there was a time when he was caught illegally dumping trash because the idiot had his personal mail in what he dumped. He also got busted poaching deer but nothing really came of it.

    Back to the incident; The police came, took reports from the residents... and left. They didn't cite or arrest the prohibited person who entered another's property with the intent of bodily harm who then was witnessed carrying a firearm. The belief is that he is some type of informant and this is the reason he was not arrested. Whether that is true, I don't know.

    Anyway, I'd like some opinions on what could be done, who to call, etc., about dealing with this guy. This has been a situation getting worse and worse in the past few years and with it coming to guns being drawn recently I fear its going to get worse before it gets better unless there is police involvement but they don't seem to be very interested in this remote mountain town.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Situation developing in parents neighborhood, options?

    Have the landowner send a certified letter to all the people whos land backs up to his. He should give them 30 days to remove all of there stuff, or he will do it. Have him take pictures before and after. Then install a fence. He should also notify the police the day he ie removing their stuff.

    Either he gets tough or they will keep walking over him.


    .
    "The more people I meet, the more I like my dog."

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Situation developing in parents neighborhood, options?

    Quote Originally Posted by BKling View Post
    . . . . He also bought a shed and had it delivered while he was away and the land owner mentioned to the delivery guys that they were placing the shed on his property without permission. They said they were just doing as the customer asked and the property owner left it at that.

    This is where it gets interesting and where my concern begins. When the delivery guys told the troublemaker about what the land owner had said he waited for the landowner to come home and approached the landowner on his own property while feeding his dogs with a baseball bat. This is a guy who brags how he's a "***** from the streets." I'm not sure exactly what happened at this point, just a vague understanding. The landowner went to his truck to retrieve his pistol, the troublemaker retreated to his home and returned with a shotgun and a standoff ensued. Another neighbor intervened and broke it up and the police were called.
    . . . .

    The landowner needs to stop letting people walk all over him. No instructions from the customer trump his property rights, he should have demanded that they remove the trespassing shed NOW from his property, or he'd burn all the abandoned property.

    As for the complaints, he should send certified letters to the police chief, the DA, and speak with the newspapers. Convicted druggies with guns seem news-worthy to me. The landowner can also pursue a private criminal complaint for the assault, because the dirtbag's possession of a shotgun is illegal per se, which seriously helps eliminate the "we don't know who to believe" part for the cops. (Of course, leaving the scene and retrieving a handgun from his car is an element that the landowner needs to overcome.)
    Attorney Phil Kline, AKA gunlawyer001@gmail.com
    Ce sac n'est pas un jouet.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Situation developing in parents neighborhood, options?

    If the subject is actually on a form of supervision, be it parole or probation, I would advise that agent. Getting the Patrol unit to care about a matter that is not about clearing the next call, is expecting a lot. However, the supervising agent should be able to follow up on it.

    As far as how to handle the property issue, I would say Theo has it right.

    Be safe (and clear the shit out, ALL OF IT!).

    Scott

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Situation developing in parents neighborhood, options?

    Quote Originally Posted by BKling View Post
    When the delivery guys told the troublemaker about what the land owner had said he waited for the landowner to come home and approached the landowner on his own property while feeding his dogs with a baseball bat.......The landowner went to his truck to retrieve his pistol, the troublemaker retreated to his home and returned with a shotgun.......
    Next time - carry on body.

    Sorry but leave and return(on my property) WITH a shotgun - I'd be giving a quick verbal to STOP and LEAVE - with the option to drop him on the spot.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Situation developing in parents neighborhood, options?

    Landowner has a problem.

    Landowner has to solve his problem.

    Landowner won't take the necessary steps to solve his problem?

    Gee, it looks like the landowner has a problem.



    How is this your problem?

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Situation developing in parents neighborhood, options?

    Guns are being drawn in close vicinity to my mothers house in which my 16, and 9 year old sisters live. Thats how its my problem, thank you very much.

    To those who actually offered helpful advice, thanks. I've been informed that the landowner has an attorney and has a civil suit pending in regards to the land but his lawyer, from what I understand, is telling him to ride it out in hopes that he'll be able to sue for back rent or something.
    Last edited by XavierBK; May 26th, 2012 at 06:03 PM.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Situation developing in parents neighborhood, options?

    Oooo, Oooo, Ooooo Mr. Kotter!!!!! Just a little levity but I do have questions.

    My edits:

    Quote Originally Posted by BKling View Post
    I wanted to get some opinions on what my family and family friends should be aware of / can do about a situation developing in the neighborhood.

    Backstory, a small neighborhood of about 15 homes. There is one resident who is a known trouble maker, always doing one thing or another, I've even witnessed him punch his own child in the head. He is currently on parole for drug charges and therefore a prohibited person. A family friend in the neighborhood had the opportunity to buy some land in the area which runs behind all the homes. He has asked the neighbors to clear they're stuff of his property but isn't being a douche about it and has been letting them use it as they have been for years for no charge.

    Well this troublemaker had a herd of deer in a small, approx. 25'x25' cage on that property and after being asked to remove them he moved them to another pen that he owns the property of... and bought two horses to keep in the pen. He also bought a shed and had it delivered while he was away and the land owner mentioned to the delivery guys that they were placing the shed on his property without permission. They said they were just doing as the customer asked and the property owner left it at that.

    This is where it gets interesting and where my concern begins. When the delivery guys told the troublemaker about what the land owner had said he waited for the landowner to come home and approached the landowner on his own property while feeding his dogs with a baseball bat. This is a guy who brags how he's a "***** from the streets." I'm not sure exactly what happened at this point, just a vague understanding. The landowner went to his truck to retrieve his pistol, the troublemaker retreated to his home and returned with a shotgun and a standoff ensued. Another neighbor intervened and broke it up and the police were called.

    This is not the first time there has been issues with the troublemaker where the police were called. To name a few that I personally remember there was a time when he was caught illegally dumping trash because the idiot had his personal mail in what he dumped. He also got busted poaching deer but nothing really came of it.

    Back to the incident; The police came, took reports from the residents... and left. They didn't cite or arrest the prohibited person who entered another's property with the intent of bodily harm who then was witnessed carrying a firearm. The belief is that he is some type of informant and this is the reason he was not arrested. Whether that is true, I don't know.

    Anyway, I'd like some opinions on what could be done, who to call, etc., about dealing with this guy. This has been a situation getting worse and worse in the past few years and with it coming to guns being drawn recently I fear its going to get worse before it gets better unless there is police involvement but they don't seem to be very interested in this remote mountain town.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    By the sounds of it you do not live in the neighborhood. Is this correct? If this is the case then everywhere that I ask "did you" should apply to your family instead.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Your main question I presume.
    Anyway, I'd like some opinions on what could be done, who to call, etc., about dealing with this guy. This has been a situation getting worse and worse in the past few years
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    I've even witnessed him punch his own child in the head.
    Did you call child protective services and the police? If so, when you were interviewed, what was the response?


    Police Chief Jack Mentzer oversees 16 full time police officers.
    For non-emergency calls, the police department can be reached by calling (717) 367-6540 or by e-mail at ElizabethtownAdmin@police.co.lancaster.pa.us .
    In an emergency, dial 911 or 367-1835.
    Fax number: (717) 367-2332
    For more PD information, click the link - Elizabethtown Police Department
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    He is currently on parole for drug charges and therefore a prohibited person
    How do you know this fact?
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    He is currently on parole for drug charges and therefore a prohibited person......Back to the incident; The police came, took reports from the residents... and left. They didn't cite or arrest the prohibited person who entered another's property with the intent of bodily harm who then was witnessed carrying a firearm.
    Did you give a report to the police as a witness and what did they tell YOU? If what you report happened then you are saying that the police knowingly allowed a criminal to keep his freedom and his firearm(s) even when statements were taken that implicated him in a crime (based on what you have said). Did you follow up with a supervisor in the police department with your conceerns?
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    He has asked the neighbors to clear they're stuff of his property but isn't being a douche about it and has been letting them use it as they have been for years for no charge.
    Is the new property owner still letting anyone use HIS NEW PROPERTY?
    Do you know for sure that the new owner asked the "trouble maker" to remove all his stuff (pen, etc)?
    Does he then maybe NEED to be a douche about it to get the troublemaker to move his stuff?
    Has he asked the troublemaker a second time (assuming a first time) to clear off his property?
    Sent registered letters? (IANAL)
    Has he called the police about the garbage on his property and asked THEM how to procede?
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    He also bought a shed and had it delivered while he was away and the land owner mentioned to the delivery guys that they were placing the shed on his property without permission. They said they were just doing as the customer asked and the property owner left it at that.
    Did the landowner call the police or was he still "not acting like a douche about it"
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    The landowner went to his truck to retrieve his pistol, the troublemaker retreated to his home and returned with a shotgun and a standoff ensued. Another neighbor intervened and broke it up and the police were called.
    Who called the police?
    Did the police see both parties wth their respective weapons?
    Did the police take ID from the troublemaker?
    Did the police run the troublemakers name to see if there were any "Wants or Warrents" or to see if he was a prohibited person (PP)?
    Did anyone report him to the police at that time for being a PP?
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    This is not the first time there has been issues with the troublemaker where the police were called.
    So the police know this person. As such they should know he is a PP. You are asserting that the police know he is a PP and yet they do nothing. If this is the case then you have a responsibility to go up the chain of command. I assume that is why you are asking this now. I should think a call to the department head as a start. If he/she can not or will not help then find out who he/she reports to. IANAL but what about the State Attorney Generals Office?
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    They didn't cite or arrest the prohibited person who entered another's property with the intent of bodily harm who then was witnessed carrying a firearm.
    Witnessed by the police? Or reported to the police by the witnesses?
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------



    EDIT: - I see the land owner has a lawyer....This is good for the "stuff" it sounds like but what about him being prohibited and owning guns?
    Last edited by TheF00L; May 26th, 2012 at 06:39 PM.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Situation developing in parents neighborhood, options?

    Its kind of a tough situation for you/your family to persoanaly do much about this situation. The dispute you mentioned is between to seperate unrelated parties. There seems to be a bit of conjecture here as to the trouble making neighbor. Unless you know for a fact that this guy is a pp then all the "facts" about him really are just conjecture. Maybe you should have a talk with the land owner with whom the trouble maker is causing problrms with and see what you can learn there. Maybe the landowner doesnt know what legal rights he has to fix this situation and if thats the case domsome research and provide him with paperwork detailing his rights. If your worried about some nut who pulls out a gun on a whim then the property issue is irrelevant to you and you need to do what you can to prevent that from happening again (within the law of course). If he really is a pp then your best course of action is to pursue action for his crime of brandishing a firearm or whatever legal term youmwant to use for what happened. Dont stop witu just the patrol officer not doing anything and contact his seargant or higher up if need be. For you to be able to personally do anything about the situation that may be the only course of action you have.

    Good luck to you and i hope all works out

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Situation developing in parents neighborhood, options?

    i think that would be my shed.

    i worked with a guy years ago who owned a lot in his old hometown. he went home and found that someone was building a house on his property. im not sure of the technicalities but it became his house.

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