Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
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    Default new to the state

    Hey everyone,

    I'm moving to Indiana from the socialist republik of california and i am wondering about CCW situtation in indiana county. I've read what the sheriff has on their site and it seems, that without directly requiring it, by requiring that you know your references for 3 years it is going to limit most new residents (i.e. me) to waiting to be eligible for a permit for three years.

    is this correct?

  2. #2
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    Hatboro, Pennsylvania
    (Montgomery County)
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    Default Re: new to the state

    Quote Originally Posted by biohazdan View Post
    Hey everyone,

    I'm moving to Indiana from the socialist republik of california and i am wondering about CCW situtation in indiana county. I've read what the sheriff has on their site and it seems, that without directly requiring it, by requiring that you know your references for 3 years it is going to limit most new residents (i.e. me) to waiting to be eligible for a permit for three years.

    is this correct?
    There are no requirements of your references. They can be anyone in Pa.
    Last edited by ByblosHex; April 12th, 2012 at 09:49 PM.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: new to the state

    Quote Originally Posted by red beard View Post
    howdy n yes it is
    No. It isn't. There is no 3 year requirement whatsoever.

  4. #4
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    Allentown, Pennsylvania
    (Lehigh County)
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    Default Re: new to the state

    Quote Originally Posted by biohazdan View Post
    Hey everyone,

    I'm moving to Indiana from the socialist republik of california and i am wondering about CCW situtation in indiana county. I've read what the sheriff has on their site and it seems, that without directly requiring it, by requiring that you know your references for 3 years it is going to limit most new residents (i.e. me) to waiting to be eligible for a permit for three years.

    is this correct?
    BybloxHex is correct; in fact the "requirement" for references doesn't even exist in Pennsylvania law.

    Any attempt on the Sheriffs' part to try and make you wait three years, let alone three days after becoming a resident, would be highly illegal.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: new to the state

    Quote Originally Posted by red beard View Post
    my bad then...it's just what i was told when i moved here n so i waited ...sorry
    That's violation of your USCON 2nd ammendment and PACON 21st article rights.

    The Pa UFA states that Upon the receipt of an application for a license to carry a firearm, the sheriff shall, within 45 days, issue or refuse to issue a license on the basis of the investigation under subsection (d) and the accuracy of the information contained in the application. If the sheriff refuses to issue a license, the sheriff shall notify the applicant in writing of the refusal and the specific reasons. The notice shall be sent by certified mail to the applicant at the address set forth in the application.

    The Sheriff can only deny the license for listed reasons also in the Pa UFA. Those reasons are:
    (i) An individual whose character and reputation is such that the individual would be likely to act in a manner dangerous to public safety.
    (ii) An individual who has been convicted of an offense under the act of April 14, 1972 (P.L. 233, No. 64), known as The Controlled Substance, Drug, Device and Cosmetic Act. [FN1]
    (iii) An individual convicted of a crime enumerated in section 6105.
    (iv) An individual who, within the past ten years, has been adjudicated delinquent for a crime enumerated in section 6105 or for an offense under The Controlled Substance, Drug, Device and Cosmetic Act.
    (v) An individual who is not of sound mind or who has ever been committed to a mental institution.
    (vi) An individual who is addicted to or is an unlawful user of marijuana or a stimulant, depressant or narcotic drug.
    (vii) An individual who is a habitual drunkard.
    (viii) An individual who is charged with or has been convicted of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year except as provided for in section 6123 (relating to waiver of disability or pardons).
    (ix) A resident of another state who does not possess a current license or permit or similar document to carry a firearm issued by that state if a license is provided for by the laws of that state, as published annually in the Federal Register by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms of the Department of the Treasury under 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(19) (relating to definitions).
    (x) An alien who is illegally in the United States.
    (xi) An individual who has been discharged from the armed forces of the United States under dishonorable conditions.
    (xii) An individual who is a fugitive from justice. This subparagraph does not apply to an individual whose fugitive status is based upon nonmoving or moving summary offense under Title 75 (relating to vehicles).
    (xiii) An individual who is otherwise prohibited from possessing, using, manufacturing, controlling, purchasing, selling or transferring a firearm as provided by section 6105.
    (xiv) An individual who is prohibited from possessing or acquiring a firearm under the statutes of the United States.

    Again, Pa law states that A license to carry a firearm shall be issued if, after an investigation not to exceed 45 days, it appears that the applicant is an individual concerning whom no good cause exists to deny the license. Period. Pa is a 'shall issue' state. The license must be issues without good cause for denial.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: new to the state

    Draft of a letter I just typed up, this will be changed as I'm forwarding it up the chain in FOAC and the final form will likely be a joint letter with the Chairman and others.

    Letter will be to numerous Indiana County officials,


    To .........,

    I am writing to you today after hearing reports that the Indiana County Sheriffs' Office has instituted and enforced a requirement upon applicants for a license to carry a firearm that the applicant's references must be residents of Indiana County for three years and that the applicant must have known said references for three years prior to applying. If the Sheriffs' website is true in listing this as a requirement, and if the reports forwarded to me are correct that this requirement is enforced, then I must point out that it constitutes a severe violation of both the Pennsylvania Constitution and the Pennsylvania Uniform Firearms Act.

    As your office should be well aware Pennsylvania is a "shall issue" State and 18 Pa.C.S. 6109 provides no authority for a Sheriff to add additional requirements to the application aside from those set out in State statute. In fact both 18 Pa.C.S. 6109 and 18 Pa.C.S. 6120 prevent local authorities from adding additional regulations to the process of applying for a license to carry a firearm. Creating and enforcing a mandatory rule that an applicant's references must be county residents for three years and that the applicant must have known his/her references for three years is a clear breach of any Sheriffs' lawful authority.

    The application process is designed, and mandated, to be uniform across the Commonwealth. Not a single Sheriffs' office aside from Indiana County has such an egregious requirement in place upon an applicant's references. It is worth noting that Title 37, Chapter 33, Section 33.114 of the Pennsylvania Code states in part, "It is the responsibility of the issuing authority to utilize the form", referring to the application for a Pennsylvania license to carry firearms, "as prescribed by the State Police, and ensure it is accurately completed in accordance with the block instructions contained therein." The block instructions on the application for a Pennsylvania license to carry firearms contains only one requirement upon references, that they are "not family members". There is absolutely no requirement, nor any authority for such a requirement, that references be residents of a specific area or have known the applicant for a specific period of time.

    Indeed given that the reference requirement is only found on the application for a license to carry a firearm and not codified in Statute, and noting the express prohibitions under both 18 Pa.C.S. 6109 and 18 Pa.C.S. 6120 that prevent both State agencies and local officials from regulating firearms in Pennsylvania, it is highly questionable as to whether an applicant may be required to list any references at all. What is certain, however, is that there is no authority for the local issuing agent, in this case the Sheriff of Indiana County, to add any requirement beyond that listed on the State Police's application form.

    In light of the simple facts outlined in Pennsylvania's statutes and codes I request that the Indiana County officials immediately remove the requirement upon applicants that their references be county residents (let alone for three years) and that the applicant know his/her references for a three year period before applying. It is the duty of local elected officials, particularly the Office of Sheriff, to follow State law and the Pennsylvania Constitution. The Sheriff's current requirements place his office outside of both the law and the Constitution and as such I urge him to remove those requirements immediately.

    Sincerely,
    I'll have to confirm some things, edit the above and work with others in FOAC to get a final draft done (probably with a lawyer's review), so say one to two weeks I'll have it. Will post final draft once it's set.

    -Dave (please no rep now, save it for once the final letter goes out and things start really happening)

  7. #7
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    Default Re: new to the state

    so i'm gonna guess by the varied responses that i'm correct that the sheriff requires the references to have been in the county and known the applicant for 3 years, but that said "rule" isn't really kosher?

    what's weird is that the county websites don't agree with themselves......

    example 1

    example 2

  8. #8
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    Default Re: new to the state

    Quote Originally Posted by ByblosHex View Post
    There are no requirements of your references. They can be anyone in Pa.
    There is no requirement that references be from PA either. They could be from anywhere in the world, as long as they are "not family members".


  9. #9
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    Default Re: new to the state

    Also from the Indiana County website:

    Note:If permit expires between renewals do not carry your firearm until you renew. It is illegal to do so.
    I thought it was mentioned in the statute that as long as you remain eligible to have a LTCF it isn't illegal to carry up to 6 months after expiration, or something to that effect.


    Quote Originally Posted by IronSight View Post
    Draft of a letter I just typed up, this will be changed as I'm forwarding it up the chain in FOAC and the final form will likely be a joint letter with the Chairman and others.

    Letter will be to numerous Indiana County officials,



    I'll have to confirm some things, edit the above and work with others in FOAC to get a final draft done (probably with a lawyer's review), so say one to two weeks I'll have it. Will post final draft once it's set.

    -Dave (please no rep now, save it for once the final letter goes out and things start really happening)

  10. #10
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    Default Re: new to the state

    Quote Originally Posted by soberbyker View Post

    I thought it was mentioned in the statute that as long as you remain eligible to have a LTCF it isn't illegal to carry up to 6 months after expiration, or something to that effect.

    It does indeed:

    18 Pa.C.S. 6106: Firearms not to be carried without a license
    (a) Offense defined.--
    (1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), any person who carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license under this chapter commits a felony of the third degree.

    (2) A person who is otherwise eligible to possess a [FN1] valid license under this chapter but carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license and has not committed any other criminal violation commits a misdemeanor of the first degree.

    (b) Exceptions.--The provisions of subsection (a) shall not apply to:
    <SNIP>
    (12) A person who has a lawfully issued license to carry a firearm pursuant to section 6109 (relating to licenses) and that said license expired within six months prior to the date of arrest and that the individual is otherwise eligible for renewal of the license.

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