Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
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    Default Tokarev too powerful ???

    So I've had my Tokarev for a while and love it. My brother decided to get one, and took it out for the first time today. He lives in Massachusetts and goes to the Smith and Wesson plant to shoot there. After about 20 rounds, the range boss approached him and asked what kind of gun and ammo he was shooting. He showed, and told him it was a Tokarev with surplus 7.62x25. He was asked to leave after being told the gun was much too powerful for the indoor range ? Huh? What's up with that ?

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Tokarev too powerful ???

    Compared to many center fire rounds, it is smoking fast. The range prohibited him due to wear and tear on their backstop. The below was stolen from Wiki

    Performance

    The cartridge has an average muzzle velocity of around 442 metres per second (1,450 ft/s), and has about 544 joules (401 ft·lbf) of energy. However, given the wide disparity in ammunition manufactured in many different nations, ammunition will be encountered that yields much higher velocity. Most newly manufactured ammunition intended for commercial use have a higher average velocity (apprx 1560 fps). Wolf Gold FMJ tops out at 1,700 fps w/ 570 foot pounds of energy as does PPU ammunition. Some of this ammunition, such as the Wolf Gold and Sellier & Belot, use boxer primed, brass cases that are reloadable.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Tokarev too powerful ???

    Obviously he was a hell of a patriot and only wanted Massachusetts made Smiths at his range

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    Default Re: Tokarev too powerful ???

    Quote Originally Posted by cruzans View Post
    So I've had my Tokarev for a while and love it. My brother decided to get one, and took it out for the first time today. He lives in Massachusetts and goes to the Smith and Wesson plant to shoot there. After about 20 rounds, the range boss approached him and asked what kind of gun and ammo he was shooting. He showed, and told him it was a Tokarev with surplus 7.62x25. He was asked to leave after being told the gun was much too powerful for the indoor range ? Huh? What's up with that ?
    Last I checked, S&W makes a 44 magnum. Ah, here it is...yes they do --->link. Is it possible a 44 mag was used there in the past?

    If 44 mag *was* allowed and 7.62x25 wasn't, "hotness" wasn't the reason. 7.62x25 & 44 mag have very similar velocities, with the 44 mag bullet being much heavier. Two possibilities come to mind:

    • A knee jerk reaction to the Tokarev penetration issue with protective vests.
    • Their range was being defiled with berdan (re: non-reloadable casings) empties. Some ranges keep the empties and sell them for added profit. Someone would have to paw through and manually pick those berdan empties out. It's a lot easier to kick the shooter out.
    Gloria: "65 percent of the people murdered in the last 10 years were killed by hand guns"
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    http://www.moviewavs.com/TV_Shows/Al...he_Family.html

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    Default Re: Tokarev too powerful ???

    The Tok's narrow meplat and overall diameter, and high velocities/energies, are the problem.

    A needle and a Post-It note weigh about the same, but the needle will penetrate an object because of it's narrow leading edge. Then add in that most Tok ammo is FMJ, which is less likely to deform, you will have more penetration and/or damage to the bullet trap at a range.

    Research sectional density. With a narrow nose and overall diameter, there is less resistance when going through a medium.
    Last edited by knight0334; March 19th, 2012 at 09:52 AM. Reason: typo
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  6. #6
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    Default Re: Tokarev too powerful ???

    The range boss told him the round was making sparks when it hit the backstop which is what drew him over, and make the call that it could not be fired/used.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Tokarev too powerful ???

    My range (indoor) prefers I don't shoot .223, I imagine it is due to damaging the backstop but his rationale was not wanting hot brass falling on fellow members ....makes sense.

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    Default Re: Tokarev too powerful ???

    We had a similar problem with .22 Hornet FMJ. IMO the velocity coupled with the small frontal mass caused the bullets to cut through the backstop like AP.

    My only experience with 762X25 was with our falling plates, the damage was similar to what was caused be .30 carbine. Really hard on the plates and had to replace a couple.
    Courage is being scared to death--but saddling up any way. John Wayne

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    Default Re: Tokarev too powerful ???

    Quote Originally Posted by cruzans View Post
    The range boss told him the round was making sparks when it hit the backstop which is what drew him over, and make the call that it could not be fired/used.
    It was steel-jacketed ammo if it was sparking.

    There is a concern with dust at indoor ranges possibly being at sufficiently high concentrations that a spark can ignite the dust. Same thing happens at grain elevators and metalworking shops with cabinet-type abrasive blasters with dust collectors. Dust collectors and dust ducting MUST be effectively grounded to prevent sparking and a ka-boom inside the dust collector.

    The RO was correctly looking out for the safety of the range and the shooters present.

    What the others have said above about the velocity and penetration of the 7.62x25 round is also true. I've seen 7.62x25 bullets punch through 1/4" and 3/8" cold rolled steel targets as if they were butter.

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    Default Re: Tokarev too powerful ???

    Quote Originally Posted by cruzans View Post
    So I've had my Tokarev for a while and love it. My brother decided to get one, and took it out for the first time today. He lives in Massachusetts and goes to the Smith and Wesson plant to shoot there. After about 20 rounds, the range boss approached him and asked what kind of gun and ammo he was shooting. He showed, and told him it was a Tokarev with surplus 7.62x25. He was asked to leave after being told the gun was much too powerful for the indoor range ? Huh? What's up with that ?
    One of two things:

    Douche bag range master or a particularly weak backstop.

    I love the 7.62x25mm cartridge, but i do not love any of the platforms made for it. Nor do i love any of the ammo on the market for it.

    With a modern platform and solid copper or bonded core expanding bullet equipped factory loaded round this would be a highly viable police round.

    Quote Originally Posted by EandGWZ View Post
    My range (indoor) prefers I don't shoot .223, I imagine it is due to damaging the backstop but his rationale was not wanting hot brass falling on fellow members ....makes sense.
    Wait....what?

    So no brass ejecting weapons at all then? Sounds like a Fuddite rule to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by ar15jules View Post
    Compared to many center fire rounds, it is smoking fast. The range prohibited him due to wear and tear on their backstop. The below was stolen from Wiki

    Performance

    The cartridge has an average muzzle velocity of around 442 metres per second (1,450 ft/s), and has about 544 joules (401 ft·lbf) of energy. However, given the wide disparity in ammunition manufactured in many different nations, ammunition will be encountered that yields much higher velocity. Most newly manufactured ammunition intended for commercial use have a higher average velocity (apprx 1560 fps). Wolf Gold FMJ tops out at 1,700 fps w/ 570 foot pounds of energy as does PPU ammunition. Some of this ammunition, such as the Wolf Gold and Sellier & Belot, use boxer primed, brass cases that are reloadable.
    This is well within the velocity range of .357 magnum, let alone .357 maximum. There are even 9mm+P rounds such as doubletap's 80gr Barnes solid copper round that will top 1600fps. 9x23 and 9x25mm are far hotter than that as well.

    Any indoor range should stop any of these rounds.
    Last edited by Valorius; March 18th, 2012 at 08:12 PM.

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