Ruger LCP

[dkf]

Wheres Val??

At a Glock hate rally with his finger behind the trigger.

[Heckler N Koch]

Everything in life is a compromise. (Except HK's ).

There are very few loads in .380 that will expand and penetrate 12" in ordnance gelatin, which is simply a controlled, repeatable test to ensure that a bullet will penetrate deep enough to disrupt vitals after passing through intermediary tissue such as an arm (which happen to commonly be in the way of bullets!). Now, the FBI goes overboard and assigns a score of zero to anything less than 12", but slightly less than 12" shouldn't necessarily be discarded.

Not penetrating deep enough can get you killed. During the 80's, very fast, light, rounds were the preferred loads for LE agencies using 9mm, and even some with .38 (Treasury Load, for instance). These rounds exhibited massive expansion for their day, and in ordnance gelatin will commonly get 8" or less penetration.

This gave some pretty bad results on the street. A lot of people have heard of the 1986 Miami FBI shootout and the 9mm 115gr Silvertip rounds used by the FBI agents in their S&W 459 automatics. Some of these agents were SWAT members as well, and got good "A Zone" hits on the perps. However, the rounds failed to penetrate deep enough to disrupt vital tissue and drop the perps quickly.

Another notable instance was in 1989 by the San Diego Country Sheriffs office tactical team, firing 27 rounds of 115gr Silvertip into a perp. They also were scoring as good hits as anyone could hope for to the "A-zone." The perp only dropped when a round "missed" and hit the guy in the carotid artery. The good hits failed to penetrate deep enough to disrupt vitals.

This is in contrast to last years NYPD shooting where a perp was hit 21 times with 124gr Gold Dots......the officers did not get good hits, and the guy lived. The other perp, however, took 5 rounds with one being a good A-zone hit, and it penetrated deep enough to disrupt vital tissue...in this case, the heart.

Those are only notable incidents. The trend was pretty strong, though.

Why did I just go through that? Because under penetration can get you killed. Threats stop for 2 reasons: Psychological, and physiological. You can not influence the psychological stop. Physiological, you can influence. The only way to physiologically stop someone is 1) A hit to the CNS or 2) Causing them to bleed out, which is best accomplished by hitting vital tissue, such as major organs and arteries. Just an FYI, if you were to remove the human heart, a person would still have enough oxygen in their system to enact harm on you for 7-15 seconds (somewhere in that range). Not hitting vital tissues can take minutes for them to bleed out.

So choose a round that will penetrate deep enough to disrupt vital tissue.

In .380, this is most reliably accomplished with FMJ. If using FMJ, a flat point is preferable as it will create a larger permanent wound cavity than a round nose bullet, as well as having better ability to penetrate bone instead of glancing.

Someone mentioned Buffalo Bore's HC flat nose. Excellent choice. Make your own determination as to it's suitability in the LCP itself. Buffalo Bore also makes non "+p" FMJ-Flat Nose rounds which would be great as well......I've got 220 of them upstairs! They're expensive though, and Winchester White Box FMJ is also flat nose and will do pretty much the same thing at a much lower cost. However, WWB is not crimped, so be sure to watch out for setback if you chamber it more than once. By chambering a WWB round 5 times, I was able to get the round to set back so far that I could get a fingernail underneath the mouth of the case. NOT GOOD!

For hollowpoints, Federal's Hydra-Shok is surprisingly a good performer! It's a pretty bad choice in it's bigger cousin, but in .380 it actually gets around 12" in ordnance gelatin with some expansion (see here). Like all Hydra-Shoks, it will plug up with barriers and not expand........but in .380, that's not exactly a bad thing. The Hydra-Shok also has pretty light recoil, which is a plus in these little .380's.

Another good choice is Buffalo Bore's Barnes SCHP loading, which is very expensive. If we look at the Barnes 80gr SCHP performance curve (view here), we can see that it will likely penetrate 12" with 1200fps. So, out of an LCP you can plan on 11" reliable penetration, with reliable expansion through barriers. Definitely a good choice if you have the money. As with anything that's plus-pressure in .380, make your own determination to its suitability in the LCP.

In .380, avoid pretty much any other hollow-point. Underpenetration with expansion is doing you no favors. Even though they get 10-11" penetration (see here) I wouldn't even consider Hornady given their poor quality control, which is pretty well documented if you care to look for it.

In closing, .380 is a compromise. I personally feel that with proper load selection it can be a viable self-defense round, but realize its limitations and that reality does not conform to how you want the fight to go because you chose to carry a .380, you are still subject to reality. Too many people use catch-phrases like, "Oh it's just a belly gun, it doesn't need to do all that and be accurate at 10 yards" or "a .380 in the pocket is better than a .45 at home." Frankly, most people are using them as excuses to carry a smaller gun because they're lazy. Make the effort to do more than the minimum. 99% of the time I still carry a service caliber handgun, but I think a .380 is fine if you need the small form factor.

Good post. Rep on the way.

[Heckler N Koch]

For the record, a year or two ago, a local merchant killed an afterhours intruder in his place of business with a .380, when said POS came at him with a hammer. IIRC, it took one shot & it was Winter time, so he had heavier clothes on.

Interesting story thanks.

[Heckler N Koch]

I carry Hornady Critical Defense in my .380s.



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Great video!

[Heckler N Koch]

Yeah that. But also because it holds 15+1 .45acp, has an amazing trigger, and great sights. If I had to fight with a hand gun, I pick that one - for obvious, obvious... reasons.

I've considered dumping the LCP for the P238. But it doubles the weight and cost.

I've also thought about adding sights. But the trigger still blows monkey nuts. If there was a way to fix the trigger, and make it break 1/4" earlier. Regardless of what the internet weenies think about doing something like that. I would do it.

15 + 1 of .45 ACP is a beautiful thing.

[Heckler N Koch]

The OP used the word "adequate" and the .380 is adequate. I carry the LCP when I don't want to profile. It's a good, little SD gun but not a range gun or something you take to a fight. It's used to get you away from the fight. While it may not go through a heavy coat, it will do damage to the zipper on the pants.

It'll leave a mark that's for sure lol.

[IronButt]

Interesting story thanks.

Here. I found the article. I talked to Andy, (The owner & the "employee" in the story.), a few days after I heard about it & he filled in the rest of the info re: his .380 & the druggie with the hammer.
http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/ind...ed_at_she.html

[Heckler N Koch]

Here. I found the article. I talked to Andy, (The owner & the "employee" in the story.), a few days after I heard about it & he filled in the rest of the info re: his .380 & the druggie with the hammer.
http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/ind...ed_at_she.html

Great story!

[Heckler N Koch]