AR rear sights

[Azzy]

Being out at the range, and shooting a couple different things.... I found something interesting, and frustrating.

I have a heck of a time shooting rifles with a round rear aperture. I have zero issue shooting rifles with a blade and notch, and can do fairly well out to 200 yards with them. Same results on my M4gery as on the M1... I can keep a good consistent group (quarter or 1/2 dollar) in a string of shots, but have trouble keeping that group in a consistent spot. With the blade site, not an issue hitting what I need where I need on my AK, 91/30, Henry rifles, or marlin rifles.

Should I be learning something different here, practicing more, or just using what works for me?

[nfafan]

I can't help but can only commiserate with you. When I look through "peep sights" I may as well be looking through a barn door at a front-sight blade. I do much better with open "blade sights".

Thanks for posting - I could use the education too!

[-JD-]

This may help you ...



http://store.troyind.com/Di_Optic_Ap...oa-rfxx-00.htm

It is a troy "Dioptic" and one of the apertures has the points coming together at the top. It should give you a more exacting line up.

Or a smaller, maybe hooded, rear aperture like this:


http://www.sinclairintl.com/.aspx/pi...Aperture-Sight

[Hawk]

Being out at the range, and shooting a couple different things.... I found something interesting, and frustrating.

I have a heck of a time shooting rifles with a round rear aperture. I have zero issue shooting rifles with a blade and notch, and can do fairly well out to 200 yards with them. Same results on my M4gery as on the M1... I can keep a good consistent group (quarter or 1/2 dollar) in a string of shots, but have trouble keeping that group in a consistent spot. With the blade site, not an issue hitting what I need where I need on my AK, 91/30, Henry rifles, or marlin rifles.

Should I be learning something different here, practicing more, or just using what works for me?

I'm confused. Are you saying you can consistently shoot sub MOA groups at 200 yards with a M4gery and a Garand using the irons?

Anyways, the issue with peep sights is that you have to have a consistent cheek weld and thus sight picture. Your eye will naturally have a tendency towards finding the center of the rear peep, however if you don't pay close attention to the gun mount, it can be off and you'll never notice it.

I've seen this happen a hundred times where a guy would dial in the sights and shoot a good group right where he wants it. He then takes a break to paste the targets and come back only to shoot a good group but this time high/low or left/right of where he originally dialed it in earlier. This is especially true if you change shooting positions as in from off-hand to seated to prone, because your cheek weld changes for each position.

Start off by checking your cheek weld each and every time and verify you are looking directly through the middle of the rear peep.

BTW, the rear peep image can change and make you think you are looking through the middle when in fact you are not. Things that can make it change are the amount of light available, if you squint your non-aiming eye or leave it open. Squinting your non-aiming eye will cause your aiming eye to partially squint also which can affect how the peep appears. Keeping your non-aiming eye open on a bright day will cause the iris to close down which will cause you aiming eye to sympathetically also close down, which changes how the peep appears in size. With a lot of practice you'll eventually over come these issues and the cheek weld and sight picture will become automatic.

I'm guessing neither your M4gery or Garand has a hooded rear aperture? A hood will help, as would National Match sights.

[ViperHummel]

I could take a stab at what your issue may be; Proper sight picture / consistent sight picture. When I went through BCT, I had a hell of a time zeroing my iron sights. My problem was my sight picture kept changing b/c I didn't maintain a consistent cheek-to-stock location. Every time I shot a three-round group and then went to verify, my POI changed. I never made a mental note of what my front sight looked like when viewed through the rear aperture. Now, doing the nose to charging handle, I zero in no more than 12 shots, and most of the time have it down in 9 b/c I've gotten good at the guesstimation on a blank piece of paper for grouping.

On an AR the best way to maintain a consistent sight picture is placing your nose on the charging handle. Once you get more consistent, you'll know what looks right without even realizing it.

I'm sure others will chime in. The Troy rear diamond sight is nice. I have one on my Sig556, but it took some getting use to vs standard peep.

[DucatiRon]

I didn't like the standard peep sight also. Found a blade sight insert for standard rear sight at brownells. I love it on my Beowulf. Best 29.99 I ever spent on my AR. It's from Weapon Solutions. Works great also with my night sight front post.

http://www.brownells.com/mobile/aspx...aspx?pid=25128

[Azzy]

I'm confused. Are you saying you can consistently shoot sub MOA groups at 200 yards with a M4gery and a Garand using the irons?

Anyways, the issue with peep sights is that you have to have a consistent cheek weld and thus sight picture. Your eye will naturally have a tendency towards finding the center of the rear peep, however if you don't pay close attention to the gun mount, it can be off and you'll never notice it.

I've seen this happen a hundred times where a guy would dial in the sights and shoot a good group right where he wants it. He then takes a break to paste the targets and come back only to shoot a good group but this time high/low or left/right of where he originally dialed it in earlier. This is especially true if you change shooting positions as in from off-hand to seated to prone, because your cheek weld changes for each position.

Start off by checking your cheek weld each and every time and verify you are looking directly through the middle of the rear peep.

BTW, the rear peep image can change and make you think you are looking through the middle when in fact you are not. Things that can make it change are the amount of light available, if you squint your non-aiming eye or leave it open. Squinting your non-aiming eye will cause your aiming eye to partially squint also which can affect how the peep appears. Keeping your non-aiming eye open on a bright day will cause the iris to close down which will cause you aiming eye to sympathetically also close down, which changes how the peep appears in size. With a lot of practice you'll eventually over come these issues and the cheek weld and sight picture will become automatic.

I'm guessing neither your M4gery or Garand has a hooded rear aperture? A hood will help, as would National Match sights.

Im saying that at 50-100 yards I can keep a pretty decent group if I do my part. This last weekend was at 50, but time out before that was 100, when I thought I had it all dialed in.

The M4 has a magpul rear MBUS with a reddot co-witnessed, and the Garand has a standard sight setup.

I think it is a cheek weld thing, which, on a round pipe (what the stock one of those really is) I cant seem to get on the same way ever single time. It really frustrates me on the M1, I havent even been able to sight it in yet. I can get them on a pie plate at 100, which isnt horrible, but not great either. Also wasnt aware on that whole bit with squinting of the eyes.

Its more frustrating when I can take out my supposedly more inaccurate rifles and blow the performance away, because with the blade, I know exactly where it needs to be.

I didn't like the standard peep sight also. Found a blade sight insert for standard rear sight at brownells. I love it on my Beowulf. Best 29.99 I ever spent on my AR. It's from Weapon Solutions. Works great also with my night sight front post.

http://www.brownells.com/mobile/aspx...aspx?pid=25128

I wonder if that would work in the MBUS, dont have the cash to put in for another system at the moment. It really pains me to pay 30% of the rifle on iron sights for something like Troy. I bet they are nice and all, but ouch.. for that sort of cash, I would go with a parallax free dot system like an eotech.

[Hawk]

The M4 has a magpul rear MBUS with a reddot co-witnessed, and the Garand has a standard sight setup.

I think it is a cheek weld thing, which, on a round pipe (what the stock one of those really is) I cant seem to get on the same way ever single time. It really frustrates me on the M1, I havent even been able to sight it in yet. I can get them on a pie plate at 100, which isnt horrible, but not great either. Also wasnt aware on that whole bit with squinting of the eyes.

Its more frustrating when I can take out my supposedly more inaccurate rifles and blow the performance away, because with the blade, I know exactly where it needs to be.

Pie plate at 100 is not bad for either rifle depending on how you are stabilizing the rife. Are you shooting from a bench with sandbags or standing and just holding the rifle with your hands only?

On the Garand make sure the gas plug is tight every time you take her out to shoot. They can loosen, and may change your POI. Also make sure the rear sight detents are holding the sight firmly from randomly changing elevation or windage adjustments.

[JAKIII]

Took my dad out to my club in Nov to shoot my AR with iron sights. He's former Marine, as well who easily shot expert back in the day with the M1 Garand. Anyway... he couldn't find the target at 100 yds. He was clearly embarassed and I felt bad for him - next to my grouping that was on-point.

[Hooligan]

Took my dad out to my club in Nov to shoot my AR with iron sights. He's A Marine, as well who easily shot expert back in the day with the M1 Garand. Anyway... he couldn't find the target at 100 yds. He was clearly embarassed and I felt bad for him - next to my grouping that was on-point.

There you go, JAKIII, I fixed that for you! I'm one of them, too! I'm also one of the old(er) farts that has a hard time gaining a good (rear portion of) the sight picture due to failing vision. It takes a while to get anywhere near "acceptable" for me with irons (peep, in my case). Give your dad an AR with a red dot or scope and watch him light it up! And tell your Dad I said, "Semper Fi!"

OP: Practice, practice, practice! As said so well earlier, practice good sight picture and sight alignment. Also, as said so well earlier by another poster AND YOU, get a consistent cheek weld. Nose to CH works for me, too. In my case, I never shot peeps until I went into the Corps- I always used notchpost- and they were a little tough getting used to. After I got used to them I found them to be a better, more accurate sight than notch/post. Of course, YMMV!

If you feel more comfortable with notch type and don't want to keep at it with peeps, by all means change the sights out. Hell, it's your rifle, do what you whatever makes you get the most enjoyment out of it. But my advise is to keep practicing with the magpul buis peeps (Don't worry about "upgrading" the MBUS, they're decent sights and OK for what you want to do. A round hole is a round hole!) In addition, that extra practice will give you an excuse to put more rounds downrange.

John