Fixing an unlawful transfer... how?

[SuperVel]

There's a similar issue to OP's in my family.
My sister legally bought 2 handguns and gave them to our Grandfather right before moving to California. Grandfather then gave them to my brother a couple years later right before he passed away.
I'm aware no transfer thru an FFL is required here in PA for grandchild to grandparent to grandchild, but our sister is where the paper trail ends, and even no laws were broken unfortunately it could result in a headache if the "database of transfers thats not a registry" were improperly used by a LEO.

[unclejumbo]

Why would there be an explicit exception for transfers between spouses, if spouses already owned everything together? That would be like writing out an exception for transfers to yourself, which is pointless and our courts assume that no provision is pointless.

Simple. You may not buy a handgun for your friend Joe and give it to him on his birthday. You may buy a handgun and give it to your wife on her birthday. It prevents a buyer from running afoul of transfer laws. And that's part of the reason law enforcement won't deal with these civil complaints. "She took my gun!" "He gave it to me for my birthday." Because guns are not titled and guns are not registered, they fall within marital property. Like most things in a marital household, there is a primary user but all property acquired during the marriage is marital property in PA.

If the exception didn't exist and one spouse or the other produced their paperwork showing the gun was purchased by them, then you would have a crime because only one person in that household can own that gun. In this case, either can own the firearm regardless of the person who filled out the 4473. (Assuming neither is prohibited) And that assumes it was purchased at a dealer. The buyer may not be the current owner and the current owner may not be on a 4473. If you buy a rifle for your 18 year old son and give it to him, you're on a 4473 but you aren't the owner, you can't legitimately claim he stole it and you can't lawfully take it back. If you do the same with a car and your name is on the title, you still own that car even though you "gave" it to him.

It would take compelling proof of sole ownership for it to be a theft. Say a will that bequeaths that particular gun to the "victim" or proof it was a pre-marriage purchase/acquisition.

[GunLawyer001]

Simple. You may not buy a handgun for your friend Joe and give it to him on his birthday. You may buy a handgun and give it to your wife on her birthday. It prevents a buyer from running afoul of transfer laws. And that's part of the reason law enforcement won't deal with these civil complaints. "She took my gun!" "He gave it to me for my birthday." Because guns are not titled and guns are not registered, they fall within marital property. Like most things in a marital household, there is a primary user but all property acquired during the marriage is marital property in PA.

If the exception didn't exist and one spouse or the other produced their paperwork showing the gun was purchased by them, then you would have a crime because only one person in that household can own that gun. In this case, either can own the firearm regardless of the person who filled out the 4473. (Assuming neither is prohibited) And that assumes it was purchased at a dealer. The buyer may not be the current owner and the current owner may not be on a 4473. If you buy a rifle for your 18 year old son and give it to him, you're on a 4473 but you aren't the owner, you can't legitimately claim he stole it and you can't lawfully take it back. If you do the same with a car and your name is on the title, you still own that car even though you "gave" it to him.

It would take compelling proof of sole ownership for it to be a theft. Say a will that bequeaths that particular gun to the "victim" or proof it was a pre-marriage purchase/acquisition.

We can agree that most police departments, maybe all, will not be of any help in this situation.

[Daycrawler]

I would tell the other person, speaking terms or not. If we don't transfer this pistol we are both in trouble. Then offer the other person $50 for taking the time to do the transfer.


IANAL IDK if it has been mentioned, how long were these two involved in a relationship? PA does recognize common law marriage. A friend of mine learned that the hard way, as in the 50% way. So if the couple were in a relationship for more than seven years (IIRC), they may both have a loophole I just hate using the words of the left.

[:-)]

I would tell the other person, speaking terms or not. If we don't transfer this pistol we are both in trouble. Then offer the other person $50 for taking the time to do the transfer.


IANAL IDK if it has been mentioned, how long were these two involved in a relationship? PA does recognize common law marriage. A friend of mine learned that the hard way, as in the 50% way. So if the couple were in a relationship for more than seven years (IIRC), they may both have a loophole I just hate using the words of the left.

This was the case years ago but there isn't common law marriage in PA anymore. If that was the case, I would stop dating all together and I would never let a girl live with me. I like to trade them in every five to eight years.

[Sgt.K]

I like to trade them in every five to eight years.

Trade a 44 for a pair of 22s?

[Parrisk]

6 of this, 1/2 dozen of that.. any way it goes it needs to be documented.

As far as the firearms go, if she decides to sell/give away/get them stolen and they are later recovered by law enforcement, someone will be knocking on the OP's door and a simple
"Well see officer, several years ago during my divorce she took my guns" is not going to get him off the hook

[Daycrawler]

This was the case years ago but there isn't common law marriage in PA anymore. If that was the case, I would stop dating all together and I would never let a girl live with me. I like to trade them in every five to eight years.

Well this was about four years ago. The guy had to remortgage his house and give the ex half. When your single why have one when you can have them all?

[:-)]

Well this was about four years ago. The guy had to remortgage his house and give the ex half. When your single why have one when you can have them all?

I'm not twenty anymore, not rich, they are expensive and I can only handle one crazy at a time.

https://www.divorcenet.com/states/pennsylvania/pa_art08

[knight0334]

My input in such a situation - wait until at least 13 years has transpired since the transfer. Then go to a FFL and transfer it to yourself. Until then, keep the gun locked up in a safe, never take it anywhere.

While it doesn't fix the problem, it kinda lessens it - the firearm is still contraband. The problem is permanent sans some sort of state grandfathering or immunity in some future law.