Do I need to go through a Dealer (form 1)

[marinville]

I bought a 1986 Tula AKS-74U kit (krinkov). Right now I have the kit and the 8.25'' barrel. I need to do my paperwork and get a receiver. After the paperwork comes in, I plan to have it built by Mario at Piece of History Firearms, in Arizona.

Is there a reason I would need to involve a dealer in my paperwork? I already have the forms (form one, citizenship forms, fingerprint cards) which I ordered direct from the ATF. I believe I can fill them out correctly on my own.

Am I misunderstanding the process somehow? I believe I can fill out the paperwork (sheriff signature, passport style photos, prints done by PSP, pay the tax), wait for approval, then send my parts, barrel, receiver (copy of the paperwork?) to the builder. Perhaps i would need a dealer after my completed gun is built, but I see no reason why I need one now.

A guy I know from work speculated that he believed that the ATF (possibly) would not mail the approval directly back to me, but would only mail it to a dealer, hence the need for one. Is this correct?

Sorry, I did read the sticky, but I'm still confused on this part. Why do I need a dealer to do my paperwork?

EDIT: I forgot to mention that the receiver manufacturer (74u-llc) will custom serialize the receiver, and will do the SBR engravings.

[GunLawyer001]

Who exactly is manufacturing the gun? Is it Mario, or you? You can't Form 1 a gun and then have someone else manufacture it. For that matter, I don't think you save any money by Form 1'ing it for $200 and then having the work done by a C2. Might as well have the C2 be the manufacturer and transfer it to you on a Form 4 for $200.

Maybe I'm not following what exactly you're doing.

Also, it's not clear to me whether you have a complete receiver, buttstock and short barrel in your possession prior to receiving approval, because that would be a bad thing to publish on the Internet.

[marinville]

I thought it was quite clear that I do not currently possess the receiver.

Now, beyond that. I am under the impression that to make an NFA item from an existing Firearm (receiver) that I need to fill out the form 1.

I will not actually be building the gun myself as I do not have the tools or knowledge. The builder would be Mario at POHF. (whom I have not contacted yet) Being that the cost of this build is so great, I am taking things in small steps. My next step was going to be the tax stamp.

From all the information I have gathered from the AK files, this is the appropriate way to go. Unless I have somehow largely misunderstood many posts it seems like most fill out the form 1 and have either mario at POHF or TROY at inrange build their rifle for them after the approval comes in.

Is this not how it works?

[GunLawyer001]

I suppose I misunderstood because your plan can't work as stated. If you fill out the Form 1 application before you buy the receiver, what are you going to put down for the serial number? The receiver is actually the registered part, without that, there's nothing to register.

Legally, the SBR is the assembled gun. That was the main point of the Thompson Center case at the Supreme Court. But you can't have all the parts, including barrel, buttstock & receiver, in your possession prior to having the approval in hand. What some do is buy everything except the short barrel, or except the buttstock. But you should have the receiver legally in hand before you apply to make it into an SBR. You just shouldn't also have the stock and short barrel when you do.

[marinville]

I suppose I misunderstood because your plan can't work as stated. If you fill out the Form 1 application before you buy the receiver, what are you going to put down for the serial number? The receiver is actually the registered part, without that, there's nothing to register.

Legally, the SBR is the assembled gun. That was the main point of the Thompson Center case at the Supreme Court. But you can't have all the parts, including barrel, buttstock & receiver, in your possession prior to having the approval in hand. What some do is buy everything except the short barrel, or except the buttstock. But you should have the receiver legally in hand before you apply to make it into an SBR. You just shouldn't also have the stock and short barrel when you do.

I can have the receiver custom serialized to whatever I desire, and they will do the SBR markings as well. I was planning on using the (already) serialized number for all the kit parts on the reciever, and thus on the form 1.

[marinville]

Let me try to make my intentions as clear as possible, because now I am more confused that ever. (I also read Jay Bell's sticky AGAIN and it does now seem to cover what I want to do.)

I intend to have an SBR built from a Russian Parts kit, with am 8.25'' US made barrel, and a receiver manufactured from 74u-llc. I do not current possess the receiver (and will not until after ATF approval comes in). The manufacturer of the receiver will customize the serial number to whatever I wish (within a certain character # limit)

This is an expensive process. The kit alone was $800. The receiver isn't cheap, the barrel isn't either, nor the build cost, and of course there is the tax. Because of this, I can not afford to do things all at once.

I had to buy the kit and barrel first because supply is low. The kits are running out and the barrel was in fact out of print. I had to buy one second had for a premium.

My next step was going to be the ATF dance, then the receiver, then send it off to the builder. I believed that I needed a form 1, since the NFA item would be built from an existing firearm (receiver.)

Now that I could not be more confused... what forms do I need, and how does my intended process need to be changed?

The end result needs to be: the rifle being built by a known quality builder in Arizona, on the 74u-llc receiver... using my barrel and kit.

What do I need to do to make this happen?


EDIT: You see, this is what I believed. I believed that I needed to register the receiver (firearm) as an SBR using a Form 1. Then I believed that I could use whatever builder I wish, to assemble the parts kit and barrel (all just parts) onto the receiver that I had registered on the Form 1.

[marinville]

OK: Here is the response I have gotten so far at The AK Forum, and it is pretty much exactly what I had originally understood to be correct... before making this thread.

Purchase the receiver with the serial number you want from 74U LLC. Have David engrave your personal information on the receiver that is required by the BATFE and the NFA process (your name and the city, state abbreviation). Fill out your Form 1 (in duplicate, front and back on one sheet of paper) along with the fingerprint cards, photos and Form 5330.20. Mail the whole collection to the address as stated on the Form 1 along with a check for $200 made out to "Department of Justice." Wait 3-6 months for one copy of the approved Form 1 with tax stamp affixed to be mailed back to you. Make a few copies of this approved Form 1 and then keep it in a safe place; only send off or keep with you at the range a copy of the approved Form 1. With a copy of the approved Form 1 in the box, mail your receiver and box o' parts off to Mario and prepare to have a beautiful SBR mailed back to you whenever he is finished.

While Mario is "assembling" the SBR, you are the "manufacturer."

I'm sure others on here can jump in as well, but this is how I did my PS90. Mail the forms off, wait for them to return, get your short barrel rifle built by a professional.

Hope that cleared it up for you.

So, does anyone out there still believe that this is an incorrect process to follow? Gunlawyer, I'm looking at you pal.



AHEM:

AND NOW TO MUDDY THE WATERS EVEN MORE (I just had to throw this out there, preemptively):

I just know there is someone out there who has just read the above quote and is thinking "omg, if you followed that advice you would have possession of the barrel, stock, and receiver all before having ATF approval!" But (correct me if I'm wrong please) if I have my wife lock the barrel and stock up in a safe that I do not have the key/combo to, until my paperwork comes back, then I don't have possession of the barrel and stock anymore... Do I?

[ithinkimamedic]

Not to sound like a prick but did you call Mario and ask him how he typically handle's this type of stuff. The info you received in the above post seems like it would be the easy way but my hypothesis is that it would be against what the BATFE would consider acceptable.

The logical way would be as follows. Send all your stuff to Mario, have him build it and register it (since he is a mfg [hint hint]) and then he will have to F3 it to a dealer in PA who will then F4 it to you. A good friend of mine did the exact same thing you are talking about doing with a bulgy 762 side folder krink back in 2005ish and those were the steps he had to go though though it was not through PoHF it was another AZ based company.

[marinville]

Not to sound like a prick but did you call Mario and ask him how he typically handle's this type of stuff. The info you received in the above post seems like it would be the easy way but my hypothesis is that it would be against what the BATFE would consider acceptable.

The logical way would be as follows. Send all your stuff to Mario, have him build it and register it (since he is a mfg [hint hint]) and then he will have to F3 it to a dealer in PA who will then F4 it to you. A good friend of mine did the exact same thing you are talking about doing with a bulgy 762 side folder krink back in 2005ish and those were the steps he had to go though though it was not through PoHF it was another AZ based company.

I did not call him. I assumed he would be busy, and becasue I do not currently have the money for his build costs, I do not want to waste his time.

The advice I received from The AK Forum has also been confirmed by mojo100 (who is also a member here.)

Does anyone have anything stronger than a hypothesis, to suggest that it is incorrect?

EDIT: I'm not trying to cut corners here people, but I'm also not trying to add unnecessary corners.

[Xringshooter]

Reread the quote you posted from the AK Forum. Read the steps. It was said: First, get the receiver. Then do the Form 1 paperwork. Then, when you receive the tax stamp, ship the receiver and all the other parts to the builder.

This is what GunLawyer was getting at. You have to have the receiver in hand to do the paperwork. What if you tell the receiver maker what to put on the receiver, then you use that for the Form 1 paperwork (without actually having the receiver in hand) and then the receiver comes in and whoever did the engraving transposed 2 numbers or letters? Your Form 1 paperwork is then incorrect and you have to jump through hoops to get it made right. And please don't say that that would never happen, it does, people make mistakes all the time, even it a tightly run business. All it takes is one second of distraction.

Also, GunLawyer made the point that you can have the receiver and almost all the parts and be legal while waiting for the tax stamp. As long as you don't have all the parts needed to complete the SBR, you are fine. Once you get the tax stamp, get the last part needed and ship them off to be put together. But you're not the manufacturer until you have the receiver in hand.