great traffic stop encounter

[ray h]

At the risk of beating a dead horse, I'll just point out again
I think this cop's actions measurably extended the stop's duration, and so converted the encounter into something other than a lawful seizure.

Now, there was no criminal charge resulting from the stop and no physical or emotional harm to the OP, so there's nothing to suppress at a criminal trial and likely too little for a successful §1983 civil suit (the OP doesn't even think he was harmed), but that doesn't mean his civil rights weren't violated.

Just because he said "yes" and went along with having his rights violated doesn't make the violation lawful.

What it comes down to is whether the OP could end the encounter if he had wanted to. If he volunteered information and consented to the search, he didnt take the opportunity to end the encounter.
Was he able to end it, we dont know because he didnt try.
His rights werent violated, they were forfeited.
I do agree that a violation can not be lawful. If its lawful, its not a violation.

[jpg5080]

No, I don't respect your choices and I have *every* right to judge you. I have the right to judge every person I come in contact with. I decide whether he is someone with my same values. I decide whether he has earned my respect or not. I decide whether he is allowed in my circle or not.

You do what you want but I suggest you stop listening to that liberal crap about "just make sure everyone feels good" and "please don't judge me". Start using your brain and stand up for yourself. You decided to trade your rights in exchange for getting out of a ticket, full knowing that you did something wrong.

Man up, son. In the future, stand for your rights. Don't feed the pigs. Pay your ticket and don't turn left there again. And most of all, don't post an encounter here and then cry about being criticized.

^^^Bold quoted for emphasis....^^^

[forby]

First I would lie to say hello. I joined this site quite a while ago and decided to post finally. A friend and I just recently joined hellertown sportsmans association. If anybody is familiar with the area, there's a no left turn sign at the main intersection leaving the club. I didn't notice the sign and as I made the left there happen to be a Lower Saucon LEO sitting right across the way. He pulled me over and told me about the sign and asked where we we going and had come from. I told him we had just left the club on our way home. He asked where the guns were and I told him all but one were in the trunk and that I had my LTCF and my loaded, holstered, 1911 in the center console. He asked me to step out, and I did. He picked up the gun, my LTCF and DL and all other paperwork, and came back 5 mins later with my paperwork and gun and told me, since I was upfront and honest with him, no citations would be issued for the left turn. So the guys in Lower Saucon are alright by me.

Let me go in the way back machine and replay what MAY have happened....

COP: Do you have any guns in the car?
citizen: Yes
COP: (drawing weapon) GET OUT OF THE CAR SCUMBAG!!!!
citizen: But I......
COP: (ripping citizen out of car) ON THE GROUND ASS@#$#!!
COP: (talking into radio) COP TO BASE....SEND BACKUP....GUNS GUNS GUNS!!!
citizen: But I have a perm..........
COP: STOP RESISTING.... STOP RESISTING!!!!!!!

Before you know it, your getting kicked by cops, tased and arrested. Your guns get confiscated. 6 cops agree in a report that you were combative and reached for your weapon.

Fast forward a few days after you make bail....

citizen: Hey PAFOA, my rights were violated... send money.....

Author's note: citizen is intentionally in small print to illustrate hoe he was "kept down" by the authorities.

[normanvin]

I was pulled over twice last spring.

Once for doing 88 in a 55 zone. The state troopper wrote it up as 65 in a 55 zone. Never asked if I was armed. Never even mentioned the 1911 inside sticker on the back window.

second time was about a month later. I was tagged for doing 78 in a 55 zone. It also happened to be a double fine zone. H asked if I ever received a ticket before. I said I did a month earlier. He wrote it up as not obeying signage. He then asked about the ZRT sticker on my back window. And we chatted guns for a few minutes. Never asked if I was armed.

I am going to have to say that these two examples are good or great traffic stop encounters. I did something wrong. They gave me a break. I did not ask them to. I did not tell them I was armed, even though my truck has a sticker on it that clearly says I might be.

Unfortunately I had to sell a gun each time to cover the fine. But I still had enough left over to pick up two others I had on layaway.

[Doughdaddy]

I was pulled over twice last spring.

Once for doing 88 in a 55 zone. The state troopper wrote it up as 65 in a 55 zone. Never asked if I was armed. Never even mentioned the 1911 inside sticker on the back window.

second time was about a month later. I was tagged for doing 78 in a 55 zone. It also happened to be a double fine zone. H asked if I ever received a ticket before. I said I did a month earlier. He wrote it up as not obeying signage. He then asked about the ZRT sticker on my back window. And we chatted guns for a few minutes. Never asked if I was armed.

I am going to have to say that these two examples are good or great traffic stop encounters. I did something wrong. They gave me a break. I did not ask them to. I did not tell them I was armed, even though my truck has a sticker on it that clearly says I might be.

Unfortunately I had to sell a gun each time to cover the fine. But I still had enough left over to pick up two others I had on layaway.

I have been pulled over twice since getting my LTCF, once by a local yocal in Lykens for going 47 in a 35, I gave him my LTCF with my license and was never asked to give up my gun, where it was or anything.

The next was by a PSP for doing a few over the posted limit and I only gave him my DL. Was never asked about guns, where I was coming form or going, not even if I had dead bodies in the trunk (not that I did mind you). In both cases I was let go with a warning and no ticket and I have my NRA and GOA stickers in the back window in plain view.

[twency]

What it comes down to is whether the OP could end the encounter if he had wanted to. If he volunteered information and consented to the search, he didnt take the opportunity to end the encounter.
Was he able to end it, we dont know because he didnt try.
His rights werent violated, they were forfeited.
I do agree that a violation can not be lawful. If its lawful, its not a violation.

He couldn't end the encounter. He had been lawfully stopped by a police officer who observed a moving violation, and the officer had not yet told him (or otherwise indicated) that he was free to leave.

If the officer had said "you're free to go", and then said "by the way, may I check that pistol to make sure everything's on the up-and-up?" then I would agree with you.

In general (and with certain exceptions) "the test for telling when a seizure occurs is whether, in light of all the surrounding circumstances, a reasonable person would have believed he was not free to leave." (Brendlin v. California) Under the OP's circumstances, having been pulled over by the cops he was clearly seized, and a reasonable person would IMO not feel he was free to leave at the time of the investigation of the pistol, given the sequence of events described in his first post here.

[50cal.gold.titan.mag.]

unfortunately, all police have different personalities even tho they work for the same dept. recently, my brother came upon an accident in lower saucon. the police and the tow truck were there. he was waiting patiently in his 3/4 ton pickup for them to clear the accident. all of a sudden, the tow truck started backing up towards his truck. my brother backed up slowly to avoid the trucking hitting him . he didn't notice a honda civic stopped right on his bumper. it was at nite. 3/4 trucks are much higher off the ground than the little civic. he bumped into the front end of the civic. the cop in charge of the accident came over to him and asked why he backed up. he told him because if he wouldn't have, the tow truck would have hit him. the cop asked for his lic.,reg., and ins. then came back and told him it was ok to leave. a couple of days later he gets a citation in the mail. he was charged with "improperly backing up" which is 3 points. he called the cop and asked him why he charged him. he said, he wrote up the driver in the civic for an expired inspection and it wouldn't have looked good if he didn't write him up, too. so, as i said, every cop has a different personality. any cop can, on any given day, do exactly the opposite of his buddy, on any given day.

[donotknowme]

snip
any cop can, on any given day, do exactly the opposite of his buddy, on any given day.

It's a shame they all don't follow the same laws and procedures.

[rugerchaz]

some people clearly prefer cooperating even if its sacrificing & tarneshing their constitutional rights! cops can certainly be intimidating and although i`ve never had a bad experience...its hard to say how one would respond regarding a vehement display of their gun rights when a cop is calling for back up while having you at gun point because you refuse Any of his requests. I`ve read many posts with these kinda scary scenarios! much gratitude & admiration for our gun-rights warriors that stand steadfast in that moment of badge abuse, cause its gotta be a potentially terrifying situation.

I hope no bloke i know ever has to experience Vicious strong arm of the law........but many shared stories ive read on here are horrid abuses of our civil rights!

[streaker69]

unfortunately, all police have different personalities even tho they work for the same dept. recently, my brother came upon an accident in lower saucon. the police and the tow truck were there. he was waiting patiently in his 3/4 ton pickup for them to clear the accident. all of a sudden, the tow truck started backing up towards his truck. my brother backed up slowly to avoid the trucking hitting him . he didn't notice a honda civic stopped right on his bumper. it was at nite. 3/4 trucks are much higher off the ground than the little civic. he bumped into the front end of the civic. the cop in charge of the accident came over to him and asked why he backed up. he told him because if he wouldn't have, the tow truck would have hit him. the cop asked for his lic.,reg., and ins. then came back and told him it was ok to leave. a couple of days later he gets a citation in the mail. he was charged with "improperly backing up" which is 3 points. he called the cop and asked him why he charged him. he said, he wrote up the driver in the civic for an expired inspection and it wouldn't have looked good if he didn't write him up, too. so, as i said, every cop has a different personality. any cop can, on any given day, do exactly the opposite of his buddy, on any given day.

Had the driver not been driving on an expired inspection sticker, he wouldn't have been there, and therefore the guy wouldn't have hit him. It would seem the ticket was just there for revenue generation instead of actually punishing wrong doing.