Phila. Gun License Dept. Experience Today

[.45Kimber1911]

I was merely pointing out that it is possible to buy a gun and be denied a LTCF, a lot of people think because they were able to buy a gun that they are guaranteed to get a LTCF. Nothing was directed at you personally, although telling the GPU about a DWI/DUI will get you looked at little harder for sure no matter where you got them.

No offense take. Was just making a statement to keep the conversation going and to let people know a little about my situation.

[mbinpa]

Having been around this forum for a little while I have had my level of civic and constitutional awareness enhanced A LOT.

I now know the rules about carrying firearms in the Commonwealth probably as well as anyone else (it's really pretty basic, isn't it?) and the limits of, and abuses of, government on all levels.

With that said I am incredibly frustrated by the lack of willingness for us (myself included) to act on what we see. I say to myself that I know that there are lawyers on this forum, and many who are not, who still support the Constitution. Where are they? I used to make fun of the ACLU, now I feel like making phone calls to them asking for help.

My brother is a lawyer. I learned on this forum about civil forfeiture and how the gov't can just confiscate property without cause or warrant. Over Thanksgiving I asked him how this can happen. He just shrugged and said that most people carrying large amounts of cash should have to explain it - that they usually are criminals. I asked about civil rights and he just kinda laughed and said the gov't is going to do what they want.

Sorry about my rant, but I hear about how PDs, sheriffs, townships and cities actually violate the laws - preemption, denial of or delay in processing applications, failure to know or willfully violating open carry rights - and I don't know what to do about it. It's just do whatever you need to do to go along and not make waves. I still remember that YouTube video that was around here about the police confiscating recording devices (cell phones and video cameras) at a public meeting in a public building.

How does one express their outrage?

[ViperGTS19801]

The attitude amazes me. When I went to the evidence locker to pick up my gun, it was like the part of school where you tell the teacher that the kids stole your ball, and they stand there and scowl at you while the teacher watches you walk away with it. It was as if I caught them at some sort of priveledged little game they were playing and they were only "allowing" me to have my property back because they had to actually obey the rules this time.

When I asked them where my missing rounds of ammunition were, what they actually said was, "It's not our POLICY to give ammunition back," but their tone of voice was saying, "shut the fuck up and take your stupid gun - you're lucky we're letting you have it."

Try striking up a friendly conversation and they might as well just be saying "Go fuck yourself" with the way they either try to make you feel stupid, make fun of you, or just act like douchebags because you're proveledged to be breathing the air as they are.

I mean, I would understand it a bit more in the areas where criminals frequent...but the LTCF place is where upstanding, law abiding people make up the overwhelming majority of patrons, so to speak, so why treat them like shit all the time?

[Connal]

I counted the days out and if my elementary skills are correct, I will be stopping down there again on February 20th if I do not get anything back from them via mail before that. I will wait to give them an opportunity to comply with the 45 day issue or rejection rule before I go down there and raise any kind of holy hell in the off chance they decide to use that against me in any way to profile me and deny my because of character flaws.

Why would you raise a stink after 45 days, when you didn't over them wanting blood and stool samples for a "carry permit"?

Personally, had they pulled this with me. I would have thanked her for her time, called my lawyer, and told him to deal with it and cut me a check once it was all said and done.

Oh, just to let you know. Philly made a new rule. In order to apply, everyone needs to send me $100. Sorry, I know it isn't the law. But philly wants you to do that to speed the process up.

Philly has been blowing smoke for years. It is time to put a stop to it. You have a hell of a team behind you here on this board. Use us to your advantage.

[worker987]

You think you have it rough???

I'm in N. Berks............absolutely horrid conditions (see a recent article):

http://www.wfmz.com/news/Gun-permits...o/-/index.html

My last renewal(right in town) took a painful 15 minutes - mostly because the deputy and I had to chat while the computer re-booted - pleasant people

When will you Philly inmates sue those bastards back into the Stone Age for infringing your rights?

[kadar]

When will you Philly inmates sue those bastards back into the Stone Age for infringing your rights?

I did not know that second class citizens even had rights,

[bigdawgbeav]

Welcome to the forums. Sorry you had a shit experience.

The fact is that only Philly residents can take up a stink with the state over the extra paperwork. I would love to be able to walk in to the AG's office and demand that the Philly "Gun Permit" Unit be held accountable for their bullshit activities.

But since I have no experience with them, I have no say.

I am so glad I live in Bucks County... in and out in 20 minutes. No interview, no fingerprints, no bringing a photograph, no reference sheets, nothing. Just my pre-filled out application, $20 and my ID.

I understand about the necessity to have to live in Philly for business, so I am sorry you are stuck there.

Good luck with the wait and please keep us informed. We're here to help (in most cases).

[donm]

This won't be popular here, but the law gives the sheriff (or PPD) a lot of latitude in issuing licenses. Not that everything they do is legal, but I think most of it would probably be upheld by a court. The statute reads:

§ 6109. Licenses.
...
(d) Sheriff to conduct investigation. -- The sheriff to whom the application is made shall:

(1) investigate the applicant's record of criminal conviction;

(2) investigate whether or not the applicant is under indictment for or has ever been convicted of a crime punishable by imprisonment exceeding one year;

(3) investigate whether the applicant's character and reputation are such that the applicant will not be likely to act in a manner dangerous to public safety;

(4) investigate whether the applicant would be precluded from receiving a license under subsection (e)(1) or section 6105(h) (relating to persons not to possess, use, manufacture, control, sell or transfer firearms); and

(5) conduct a criminal background, juvenile delinquency and mental health check following the procedures set forth in section 6111 (relating to sale or transfer of firearms), receive a unique approval number for that inquiry and record the date and number on the application.

To be objective, the legislature probably had more in mind than a PICS check here, though many sheriffs go with that. Fingerprints, references, and an interview are commonly part of a "background check." If you want a job selling coffee at the airport, you will be fingerprinted. The attitude of the PPD is just a "bonus" for electing people who encourage it.

What I think might reasonably (we're talking about the courts here; so the term "clearly" doesn't apply) be held illegal by a court is:

1) Requiring the applicant to obtain written references. The law clearly states that the application is to be one page, and is to be the one prescribed by the PSP. Essentially they're adding a multi-page essay question (to be completed by someone else) to the application. The same could apply to the Montgomery County sheriff's "police check card."

2) Requiring you to sign a form essentially waiving your rights (must inform, revocation for a stolen firearm, etc.). I think my response would be that I need to have my attorney look it over and walk out the door with it. At that point you have the letter from the PPD saying you were approved, and a "contract" that they demand you sign that has no basis in law. Seems a knowledgeable attorney could do something with that.

3) Taking more than 45 days to issue. Here in the real world, not many of us are going to spend a lot of time and treasure to push back because it took an extra week. If that's a high priority in your life, go for it. A likely defense on their part is that the "investigation" was completed in 45 days (that's what the law actually says), but the "administrative process" takes a bit longer.

[PreserveandProtect]

This won't be popular here, but the law gives the sheriff (or PPD) a lot of latitude in issuing licenses.

In an attempt to put things in perspective, a patrol officer has a lot of leeway, too, but that doesn't mean he can decide to start pulling people over and searching their cars without probable cause, etc. (We all know the discussion)

Not disagreeing with their authority to do so, but that authority is limited in its application. An officer is given great discretion in the line of duty, but one would have a hard time justifying *every* person coming in for a LTCF warrants a *special and thorough* investigation- especially when so far above and beyond the established *law* for the procedure.

I do want to emphasize a point another poster made: Persons seeking a LTCF (for the most part) are persons *without* a significant criminal record.

Not exactly the same as a "guns for drugs" exchange...oh yeah, they call that a "Gun Buyback Program" but we know where a lot of that $$ goes

[donm]

Not disagreeing with their authority to do so, but that authority is limited in its application. An officer is given great discretion in the line of duty, but one would have a hard time justifying *every* person coming in for a LTCF warrants a *special and thorough* investigation- especially when so far above and beyond the established *law* for the procedure.

As the law is written, it says "the sheriff shall" and lists five requirements (connected by "and") for the process of issuing an TLCF. I see a lot of posts here that basically say that since my **** county sheriff chooses to only perform a couple of them and hands you a license on the spot, the citizens of Philly should "sue the bastards" and force them to skip those steps as well. As I said, a couple of things appear to be unlawful but for the most part the remedy is to change the law.

Specifically what do you consider "so far above and beyond the established *law* for the procedure?"