Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
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    Default Tioga County OC'ing

    Hope I didnt rock the boat to much by sending Sheriff Tom Young two emails. First one was notifying him that on the Sheriffs Office page of the tiogacountypa website it lists the LTCF (licence to carry firearm) as a "concealed weapons permit".

    I informed him that PA does not issue a permit, but a licence. Also that no where on the licence do the words "concealed carry" even appear.

    http://www.tiogacountypa.us/Departme...Pages/FAQ.aspx

    It also uses the same wording "concealed weapons permit" in the "Information on PA Firearms" link.

    I read the "Information on PA Firearms" link completely and it says NOTHING on the topic of open carry. So the second email I send was the Open Carry Memo found on the forum, just edited slightly. Which basicaly states that PA is an open carry state and goes in depth with UFA and C.S codes. Also talks about how officers are to conduct encounters with oc'ers. Touchs on "disorderly conduct" and "terroristic threats" as well. Great memo over all.

    Waiting to hear back from him, if i even do. Wondering if anyone knows if hes gotten this before or how Tioga County police in general accept the law (or lack there of) on open carry. Im a Wellsboro resident.

    My personal choice is CC most of the time with either my Taurus 1911 or my S&W .38 special. I just feel its a better tactical advantage conceaing it. Personal choice. However its still a right to OC and i wanna make sure its know.
    Last edited by Forklift; January 2nd, 2012 at 11:53 AM. Reason: bad link

  2. #2
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    Keeneyville, Pennsylvania
    (Tioga County)
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    Default Re: Tioga County OC'ing

    I guess you'll just have to wait and see how it pans out.

    I don't OC, so I have no idea what could happen. Knowing how the Wellsboro police can be real hard-asses at times, it might be "interesting". Outside the borough things are more relaxed. It's a long way from Philadelphia. In Tioga County you can take your LTCF application into the courthouse and walk away 20 minutes later with the card in your pocket.

    --Phil
    Last edited by PhilB; January 2nd, 2012 at 11:55 AM. Reason: Cited benefit of living in Tioga Co.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Tioga County OC'ing

    Just ignore that info from the sheriff. In a sense though our LTCF is a "permit to conceal" because it does permit you to conceal a firearm. The LTCF also covers other activities too, but the main purpose is allowing for concealment.

    Permit and license means the same thing, even portions of our law also refers to it as a permit. "License" is just the word it is typically referred to as in our laws, but "permit" is equally correct. Our laws never gave our "LTCF" a proper name, it is simply referred to as a "license", and in some passages as a "permit". Only a regulation by the PSP gave it a proper title as "License To Carry Firearms".
    RIP: SFN, 1861, twoeggsup, Lambo, jamesjo, JayBell, 32 Magnum, Pro2A, mrwildroot, dregan, Frenchy, Fragger.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Tioga County OC'ing

    I'll be watching this thread with interest. I OC in and around Wellsboro frequently when I'm at my house in town.

    I noticed the errors the OP pointed out also.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Tioga County OC'ing

    Quote Originally Posted by knight0334 View Post
    Just ignore that info from the sheriff. In a sense though our LTCF is a "permit to conceal" because it does permit you to conceal a firearm. The LTCF also covers other activities too, but the main purpose is allowing for concealment.

    Permit and license means the same thing, even portions of our law also refers to it as a permit. "License" is just the word it is typically referred to as in our laws, but "permit" is equally correct. Our laws never gave our "LTCF" a proper name, it is simply referred to as a "license", and in some passages as a "permit". Only a regulation by the PSP gave it a proper title as "License To Carry Firearms".
    My card says "Pennsylvania Licence to Carry Firearms". I believe you should call it what it is.

    That aside, the issue i have is calling it a concealed weapons permit. I would still have an issue if you called it a concealed weapons licence. Putting the words concealed weapons "permit/licence/whatever", is not correct.

    I know police, sheriffs even cilvilans, come to that terminology cuz thats what people can do (carry concealed) once they get there LTCF. So they call it a concealed permit or even concealed licence. But these are both wrong.

    I've seen police ask for an oc'ers "concealed weapons permit" and the oc'er just natrually goes about getting it cuz he knows what the officer is talking about. Then tell them that they need to cover up cuz its a permit to carry concealed. This is not true, its a word game and they use it against you.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Tioga County OC'ing

    Quote Originally Posted by Forklift View Post
    My card says "Pennsylvania Licence to Carry Firearms". I believe you should call it what it is.

    That aside, the issue i have is calling it a concealed weapons permit. I would still have an issue if you called it a concealed weapons licence. Putting the words concealed weapons "permit/licence/whatever", is not correct.

    I know police, sheriffs even cilvilans, come to that terminology cuz thats what people can do (carry concealed) once they get there LTCF. So they call it a concealed permit or even concealed licence. But these are both wrong.

    I've seen police ask for an oc'ers "concealed weapons permit" and the oc'er just natrually goes about getting it cuz he knows what the officer is talking about. Then tell them that they need to cover up cuz its a permit to carry concealed. This is not true, its a word game and they use it against you.
    It's a word game both ways. We don't need a license to carry firearms, do we? No..

    We only need a license to carry them in a vehicle, or during an emergency, or on the streets of Philly, or to conceal them. I can carry a firearm without a license if I do so openly and walk to my destinations(I don't live in Philly).

    Those that believe that "CWP", "CHP", or any variation of the name with "concealed" in it requires the person to carry it concealed are wrong to begin with. NO state that open carry is legal in requires a person to conceal the gun when doing so with or without a license/permit. Only states where open carry is illegal does a person have a requirement to conceal, which neither the license/permit or name of makes - the law does.

    Our LTCF could have legally given the name "Permit To Blow Bubbles Out Your Butt". Then the law could have provided you an exemption to the prohibition of blowing fart bubbles, also providing an exemption to carrying a firearm concealed and orally raping rattlesnakes. No matter what the license/permit is called, only the controlling text of law determines what prohibitions it exempts you from.
    RIP: SFN, 1861, twoeggsup, Lambo, jamesjo, JayBell, 32 Magnum, Pro2A, mrwildroot, dregan, Frenchy, Fragger.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Tioga County OC'ing

    Quote Originally Posted by knight0334 View Post
    It's a word game both ways.
    But that doesn't mean it's irrelevant... The LAW itself is a word game... it is a matter of putting words on paper, then a cop/da/judge INTERPRETS those words to determine whether you are going home or going to jail...

    Words do have meaning and when mis-interpreted, or misconstrued, can have a negative effect... as every cop who uses that stupid line proves - "It says Concealed, so you must conceal."

    Education is a matter of words - It's a matter of getting the RIGHT IDEAS (through words) into the heads of people who use those words in a positive or negative way in relation to other people... and the terminology of 'License to Carry Firearms' is a much better use of words to describe the expanse of privileges that it assumes to grant (although I would argue NO LICENSE SHOULD BE REQUIRED)...

    I understand what you are complaining about - and sometimes the LTCF corrections on PAFOA get real tedious and over-the-top - but that doesn't mean the argument is unimportant or irrelevant...

    It is important to correct this thinking in the cops --- they have been brainwashed (by their superiors, trainers, or self-delusion) into this mentality to use the (incorrect) WORDS to their advantage in attempting to impose their OPINION on law abiding citizens... and while it will not prevent JBTs from using their boots when riled up, we, the citizens who hire and expect service from these cops, should expect a professionalism tauted from the top of the departments that at least attempts to correct these misperceptions... or misuse of the language... it can have a positive effect when the point is made to these officers that even their language is important...

    Citizens who take the time to involve themselves in keeping the police on target relative to their responsibilities to the citizenry should be commended...

    So, to the OP - good job - let them know that the citizenry WANTS PROFESSIONALISM from the police force - maybe then the JBTs will find work elsewhere...

    ...

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Tioga County OC'ing

    Quote Originally Posted by Forklift View Post
    My card says "Pennsylvania Licence to Carry Firearms". I believe you should call it what it is.

    That aside, the issue i have is calling it a concealed weapons permit. I would still have an issue if you called it a concealed weapons licence. Putting the words concealed weapons "permit/licence/whatever", is not correct.[...]
    As others have noted, according to Pennsylvania law "what it is" is a license to carry firearms, which is a permit. You say now that you don't have an issue with the word permit, but in your first post you said "I informed him that PA does not issue a permit, but a licence."

    18 Pa.C.S. 6109: Licenses

    (i) Revocation.--A license to carry firearms may be revoked by the issuing authority for good cause. A license to carry firearms shall be revoked by the issuing authority for any reason stated in subsection (e)(1) which occurs during the term of the permit. [my emphasis]
    [...]
    I agree that calling it a "concealed weapons" permit is misleading. But saying "PA does not issue a permit, but a licence" is wrong as a matter of law, so I think it hurts your credibility on your other arguments.

    I applaud your desire to have the sheriff say and do the right thing, but righteous indignation can backfire when misapplied.

    Edited to add: I still sent you positive rep because I think you're generally headed in the right direction with what you're trying to do, even if I disagree with one of the things you said.
    I am not a lawyer. Nothing I say or write is legal advice.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Tioga County OC'ing

    Quote Originally Posted by twency View Post
    ... but righteous indignation can backfire when misapplied.
    Well noted and correctly stated.

    It appears I may have weakend the rest of my case.





    As of now there is no response from Sheriff Young.
    Jesus Christ is LORD. PM for a free Bible, shipping included! Bilbles sent - 5

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