40 s&w vs 357 sig

[Lycanthrope]

From the Experts

If money wasn't an object, I'd rather have a .357 SIG than .40 simply because while more concussion, the recoil impulse is lighter. There isn't much difference in recoil between Winchester's Ranger-T 127gr +p+ 9mm and a .357 SIG round.

You can always use sintered rounds. I run .40's at 1400fps with 125gr pills and they are fast cycling and soft.

The .357 SIG is flippy. It is also LOUD and has a lot of flash. SIGNIFICANTLY more flash and noise than the .40 in my experience.

Lycandoesn'talwaysseethatasaproblemthrope

[TGS]

You can always use sintered rounds. I run .40's at 1400fps with 125gr pills and they are fast cycling and soft.

The .357 SIG is flippy. It is also LOUD and has a lot of flash. SIGNIFICANTLY more flash and noise than the .40 in my experience.

Lycandoesn'talwaysseethatasaproblemthrope

I prefer to use bullets that adhere to and pass the judgement passed by dudes like Dr. Roberts that I linked to. After that's done I satisfy my warm and fuzzy.

I didn't notice any excessive flash with the .357 SIG's I fired, or any service caliber with the proper load for that matter. Flash suppressed powder does wonders.

Just for fun, if you want big flash, try Winchester's Treasury Load (.38 Special 110gr+p+) in a snubnose. way fun

[Brian Ahearn]

I like the 357 sig over the 40 cal ,in fact I sold my forty cal pistols off. Its strictly personal preference as both rounds perform well. I do get excessive muzzle flash with the 5 inch 1911 fusion kit that I just built, quite a bit more than my glock 31 but that is shooting under a covered range. In direct sunlight it was not really noticeable. Might standout at nite time. It is really a fun caliber to shoot. 40 cal is cheaper to shoot. Like I said personal preference. Brian /EFR

[QuackXP]

.357 sig seems to be waning in popularity. I would expect higher ammo prices in the future as it becomes more and more uncommon.

.40S&W is trending in the opposite direction.

^^^ This.

The expense is what steered me away from it as it did not seem to offer any advantage over .40.

However in my S&W M&P40 all I have to do is swap the barrel for a factory .357 Sig barrel, even the mags are labeled .357/40. About $60 last time I looked.

[Valorius]

You can always use sintered rounds. I run .40's at 1400fps with 125gr pills and they are fast cycling and soft.

The .357 SIG is flippy. It is also LOUD and has a lot of flash. SIGNIFICANTLY more flash and noise than the .40 in my experience.

Lycandoesn'talwaysseethatasaproblemthrope

I view this as an advantage in a defensive arm, due to the obvious psychology involved.

The louder the gun firing at you, and the bigger the flash and blast it creates, the less likely that joe badguy is going to want to stick around and exchange fire with you.

I rather like the "flash suppressors" that actually have a chamber designed to direct the muzzle blast FORWARD, toward your target for that very reason.

As for Dr. Roberts DDS (yes, he is a dentist, not an MD), he obviously has some knowledge, but he is also blatantly biased. His condemnations of the 5.7mm round, when the man has never once tested a single 5.7mm load, of any kind, are quite useless. What's more, his comments of the 5.7mm are all based on 20 year old DISCONTINUED and developmental rounds, i am forced to conclude that he is a very biased individual with a very closed mind.

He has recently secured some 5.7mm rounds for testing "sometime in the next year.".....DISCONTINUED 5.7mm rounds that are already known not to expand, and which were in fact designed for maximum penetration. I bet he leaves those little facts out of his "review."

At any rate, i have little use for that man.

[TGS]

I view this as an advantage in a defensive arm, due to the obvious psychology involved.

The louder the gun firing at you, and the bigger the flash and blast it creates, the less likely that joe badguy is going to want to stick around and exchange fire with you.

I rather like the "flash suppressors" that actually have a chamber designed to direct the muzzle blast FORWARD, toward your target for that very reason.

As for Dr. Roberts DDS (yes, he is a dentist, not an MD), he obviously has some knowledge, but he is also blatantly biased. His condemnations of the 5.7mm round, when the man has never once tested a single 5.7mm load, of any kind, are quite useless. What's more, his comments of the 5.7mm are all based on 20 year old DISCONTINUED and developmental rounds, i am forced to conclude that he is a very biased individual with a very closed mind.

He has recently secured some 5.7mm rounds for testing "sometime in the next year.".....DISCONTINUED 5.7mm rounds that are already known not to expand, and which were in fact designed for maximum penetration. I bet he leaves those little facts out of his "review."

At any rate, i have little use for that man.

Did you mail him the S4M that I conversed with him about? Be fair, it's not his job to validate S4M. Throw him a bone, like we talked about he said he'd take it and test it if you wanted. I've never seen him denounce the 5.7 entirely with no reservations, just that the ammo options he tested were not acceptable. I've never seen him denounce S4M. That's fair. Maybe he's basing his opinions on the old ammo because that's what's relevant.....if he had a bone to pick and sell 5.7 weapons to agencies, then he'd have a reason to test S4M as he could purpout the potential capability of a 5.7 if the ammo were to go into a production capacity. As it is, it really doesn't matter in his line of work since S4M isn't going to be procured by any LE agency, so it's a moot point. It's not his job to sell 5.7 using hand-loaded cartridges as the demo, so I think his assessments have been quite fair.

Him being a dentist has little to do with it, and I really do think that's a cheap shot, bro. Frankly, a DDS still has a metric shit-ton more relevant medical training than you or I, so I don't see how that's helping your point. The US Navy found him qualified enough to perform the work, as did many other paying agencies. He's dedicated his life to studying terminal ballistics with teams of other professionals in the IWBA and other groups. Their work has held up to scrutiny and peer review in scientific journals, as well as being proven by the street. I haven't the slightest inclination to think I, as regular joe who browses the interwebs, am more qualified and can punk him and his colleagues with stuff I thought up on my own time. Frankly, I think we're damn lucky to have him available in the community. From talking to him personally, he's very down-to-earth and interested in furthering the ability to stop bad guys.

If anyone wants to not follow his advice, that's cool. However, I don't see how it's fair to denounce the peer reviewed scientific work that was done with other professionals over a period of decades and has been substantiated by OIS data....unless someone has something better that has been peer reviewed in scientific circles and been substantiated by actual shootings.

[dkf]

Aw look another thread with the 5.7 getting drug in. Talk about a niche round.

^^^ This.

The expense is what steered me away from it as it did not seem to offer any advantage over .40.

The .357sig FMJ ammo is as whole more expensive than .40. Not the case with the self defense HP ammo. I've been buying .357sig Speer GD, Winchester Ranger, Federal HST for $30 per 50. The Ranger T is even less. As for the .357sig dieing in popularity, I'm not seeing it. From a bullet and ammo standpoint new designs in .357sig are still being put out. Even new sig specific bullets for reloaders.

[Valorius]

I suspect in 20-30 years PDW caliber sidearms will totally dominate the military, and probably the police market.

Talk to me in 2030 or 2040 about niches.

The Chinese Army has adopted a PDW chambered pistol (biggest army in the world, ya?), and the USN SEALs have been using the HK MP7 extensively. The USSS uses the P90 to defend the white house grounds. (I think the uniformed USSS use .357 sig Sig P229 sidearms too)

That' a pretty impressive niche.

I think FN 5.7mm ammo is probably cheaper than .357 sig ammo too. Probably about the same as .40 cal. (FN SS197SR Vmax @ 19.50/50 on cheaper than dirt)

@TGS: No, someone else sent him some discontinued Elite Terminator 45gr Barnes TSX rounds. These rounds do not expand at all (though they probably do tumble), but are designed to achieve maximum penetration. If one is going to criticize a round and dismiss it, they ought to at least have some idea what they're talking about.

For instance, right after the Fort Hood massacre, he stated (on ar15.com or m4.net i think?) the Five SeveN performed miserably, and that the "heroic officer munley" stopped the terrorist's rampage. Except that she never shot him. And in fact, he put HER out of the fight with a single round of low powered FN SS197 Vmax....to the knee. Not only did he stop her instantly, he walked up and disarmed her, and could have executed her, had he been so inclined.

She is still recovering even today, as her knee was shattered into "hundreds of fragments" and was completely destroyed. She is still undergoing reconstructive surgeries and rehab. And will be for some years. She walks with a cane and is on 100% disability.

The officer that did stop Major nut case (officer Todd IIRC?) did so with a 9mm. It took him FIVE center mass hits with premium 9mm police ammunition to put down the terrorist (whose Five SeveN had jammed, after having fired about 300rds of ammo during the rampage).

During the attack, 2 soldiers and an orderly attacked Maj Hasan at close range with tables and chairs. He stopped all 3 of them instantly with multiple 5.7mm hits. Anyone that attempted to stop him, right until his gun jammed and Ofc. Todd shot him, he put out of the fight instantly with his 5.7mm. (2 soldiers, 1 orderly, and ofc munley).

Multiple witnesses testified that the volume of fire put down by the Five SeveN armed terrorist was so great, that they thought it was 2-3 shooters with automatic weapons.

Did Roberts know ANY of this before commenting and calling the Five Seven a failure? No.

(all info on fort hood shootings comes from witness testimony from the terrorist's trial, all of which is public record)

Anyway, sorry for the tangent, but my point is....Roberts is prone to try and act the part of the expert even about topics he is flat out ignorant about, WRT the facts.

You know i've had discussions with Roberts directly in the past on the other forum you and I post at. The owner of Elite tried to discuss the Five SeveN with him, and was so turned off by Roberts, that he asked me NOT to send any of his ammo to the man for testing, and instead paid big money out of pocket to have the rounds independently tested by Brassfetcher ballistic lab. Their unbiased and professional report is published on the web for anyone to see.

I think the .357 sig, the 9mm, the .40, the 5.7mm....one is as good as the other, once it's actually in the bad guy, as long as suitable rounds are used.

[Quigar57]

When I worked in the Sporting Goods department the only time we ever actually sold the 357SIG ammo is when dummies looking for 357Mag ammo would buy it without consulting us first. They usually came back within a few hours crying that they bought the wrong ammo, at that point I had the pleasure of informing them that we do not accept returns on ammo(federal law prohibits it blah blah blah). A few times other customers who happened to be lurking would offer to take the SIG ammo of their hands at a deep discount, but mostly people just left pissed off because they were dumb. I always operated under the philosophy that if you didn't know what the correct ammunition for your firearm is then perhaps your not ready to handle that firearm.

[39flathead]

When I worked in the Sporting Goods department the only time we ever actually sold the 357SIG ammo is when dummies looking for 357Mag ammo would buy it without consulting us first. They usually came back within a few hours crying that they bought the wrong ammo, at that point I had the pleasure of informing them that we do not accept returns on ammo(federal law prohibits it blah blah blah). A few times other customers who happened to be lurking would offer to take the SIG ammo of their hands at a deep discount, but mostly people just left pissed off because they were dumb. I always operated under the philosophy that if you didn't know what the correct ammunition for your firearm is then perhaps your not ready to handle that firearm.

Federal law huh?
You guys told people it was federal law?
Where was this place so I can avoid it.