SBR in Phila?

[angdefeo]

Does anyone know if someone has been successful in getting a SBR in Philadelphia without having to form a corporation or establish a gun trust? My goal is to get this from the BATFE as a Philadelphia resident without having to exploit the loopholes of forming a corporation or a trust.


I am somewhat familiar with the process and will be starting soon in getting everything filed. But before i start i wanted to know if any other Philadelphia residents have gone through the process. I am especially interested to hear if they were able to get the law enforcement to sign off on their documents.

[mythaeus]

My understanding, only from what I have heard, is that Chuck Ramsey will never sign the form for you. I personally don't know anyone who tried and got rejected so maybe you can give it a shot. Good luck.

Al

[Valorius]

There are a ton of rumors that the cleo signoff will soon be history, that'd make it much simpler. Do a google search. Barring that youll need a trust or llc i guess.

[knight0334]

You have your options of the sheriff, chief of police, the district attorney, or a judge that presides over felony cases - which in Philly, I haven't heard of any of those that will sign-off.

[angdefeo]

As far as I can tell their is not a formalized process in the city to even submit this type of request. I will start with trying to schedule appointments with the District Attorney, Cheif of Police, and Sheriff. Present my paperwork and see if there is a possibility. If all that fails, I will create

[GunLawyer001]

Does anyone know if someone has been successful in getting a SBR in Philadelphia without having to form a corporation or establish a gun trust? My goal is to get this from the BATFE as a Philadelphia resident without having to exploit the loopholes of forming a corporation or a trust.


. . . .

It's not a "loophole" if you form an LLC, an LLC is a perfectly legitimate legal person, it can be the registrant, and every human being who possesses it under the auspices of the LLC must still comply with all applicable state and Federal laws regarding prohibitions. In other words, if you have a lengthy felony record, forming an LLC would not be a defense if you were found to be in physical possession of a firearm. Same with someone who can't pass PICS buying a used shotgun privately; just because you can get a gun in your hands doesn't mean that you won't go to jail for it, the govt has no obligation to physically prevent you from committing a crime.

ATF's CLEO exceptions just make sense. An LLC doesn't have fingers, so no fingerprints are required. It has no face, so no photograph is required. And it has no criminal propensity, so no CLEO certification of your lack of criminal plans is required. It's less of a loophole and more common sense.

As for ATF abandoning the CLEO requirement for natural persons, that would be great, but the rumors of its imminent death have been floating for years, since before the 1934 Group got rolling back around 1999 with their unsuccessful lawsuit against ATF to force them to drop the requirement. The current rumors date back at least to January of 2011, and they seem stronger than before, but still, it's not going to happen tomorrow. But keep your fingers crossed.

That being said, the CLEO requirement hasn't made sense since the centralization of computer records. It's unlikely that your local Chief or Sheriff has proprietary information that would affect ATF's approval process. The whole point may have been to bypass the non-disclosure mandate of all tax records (and your Form 4 is a tax record), so ATF just required you to get the signature so that YOU would be the one disclosing to local LEO's.

We're in a race right now between (a) waiting for the CLEO requirement to disappear, and (b) Congress doing to the rest of the NFA firearms what it did to MG's back in 1986. Not too many Congressmen and Senators would stand on the floor and argue for the right of the little people to own new silencers, sawed-off shotguns, or bombs. So you can either buy as many silencers and register as many SBR's and SBS's as you can afford now, or you can wait for the supply to be frozen, and those $500 silencers become $5,000 silencers. (Think that can't happen? Check out the prices of M-11/9's in 1985 and today. Look at $1,000 M-16's in 1985, selling for $13K today.)

[angdefeo]

Part of the reason that i want to attain sign-off of the BATFE application without forming a LLC is that i am law-abiding citizen who happens to reside in Philadelphia and likes living here. I currently have a license to carry a concealed weapon and passed all the "checks" in Philadelphia. It's my reasonable assumption that signing-off on my BATFE forms is also ok since i passed all their requirements to carry a concealed weapon.

So in short, i will most likely form an LLC in order to get what i want. But i do want to figure out why Philadelphia won't treat me the same as i would be treated if i lived in another county in Pennsylvania.

[GunLawyer001]

. . . . But i do want to figure out why Philadelphia won't treat me the same as i would be treated if i lived in another county in Pennsylvania.

The reason is that demagogues want to place blame without alienating any voters. The massive crime rate in Philly is the fault of mostly people who live in Philly, and nobody wins elections by telling half the voters that they plan to crack down on their sons, brothers, husbands, father, cousins, or uncles, and throw their thieving asses in jail indefinitely.

So they blame guns, the NRA, Smith & Wesson, greedy rich folks, people in Harrisburg who are prejudiced against the City of Brotherly Love, unfeeling leaders in Washington, suburbanites who refuse to share the burden or accept "regionalization", and pretty much anyone else who wasn't eligible to vote for Philly mayor or city council.

[Valorius]

Before starting an LLC or trust, i would look into these rumors that the CLEO signoff is going away.

A few forums have a lot of background info on this, with names and quotes, blah, blah.

PS: My brother just got a suppressor with a trust, no problems at all. It cost him about $25.

[MD66948]

I went with the LLC. All four of my sons and wife are listed on the LLC. They can transport and use all NFA items registered to my LLC without me being present. You must file a PA tax return each year. I file an inactive each year since my LLC was setup for collecting NFA weapons and not for resale.

Dane