Fleeing&brandishing

**craigc** · November 27th, 2006, 11:38 AM

Had a chance to talk to my son in laws friend over Thanksgiving.He had just taken a self defense class in Lancaster were the supposedly NRA instructor told him that if you can YOU MUST attempt to flee your home!But from what I read or maybe mis-understand is that we don't have to attempt retreat from our home so TRUE OR FALSE?

Also un-clear is the Brandishing law?

**aubie515** · November 27th, 2006, 11:59 AM

If someone breaks into my home...I won't be trying to escape. The person that enters my home will be the one that should be trying to escape. Nuff said.

**ChamberedRound** · November 27th, 2006, 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by aubie515

If someone breaks into my home...I won't be trying to escape. The person that enters my home will be the one that should be trying to escape. Nuff said.

I'll 2nd that thought completely. I have a duty to protect my home and my family; no way I'm gonna flee so that some scumbag can just waltz in unhindered.

**G21.45** · November 27th, 2006, 12:45 PM

Just so you know:

Current Pennsylvania law requires anyone using a gun, anywhere, to attempt to retreat before firing a shot. The only caveat is that you may fire your weapon if your physical wellbeing is in immediate grave danger AND you are clearly unable to retreat.

That NRA instructor is correct. Right now, Pennsylvania's citizens are required to attempt to flee before using deadly force against another person - No matter where he is standing, or how wrong (or evil) he may be!

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pitt.../s_455930.html

PS: A few words on, 'brandishing'. Outside of the City of Philadelphia - where you MUST possess a CHL in order to open carry - wearing a pistol, openly, anywhere else in Pennsylvania is not considered to be brandishing. However, any inappropriate HANDLING of a firearm, anywhere in public, always is.

(So, just leave your carry piece in the holster and don't do anything with your hands that might upset the, 'soccer moms'. You should be OK!)

**Siobhra** · November 27th, 2006, 12:52 PM

Not showing the gun is also good for general PR. Let's not scare the Muggles. We want to recruit for our side not recruit members of the Million Moron Moms.

**craigc** · November 27th, 2006, 12:52 PM

[QUOTE=G21.45;13515]

Just so you know:

Current Pennsylvania law requires anyone using a gun, anywhere, to attempt to retreat before firing a shot. The only caveat is that you may fire your weapon if your physical wellbeing is in immediate grave danger AND you are clearly unable to retreat.

That NRA instructor is correct. Right now, Pennsylvania's citizens are required to attempt to flee before using deadly force against another person - No matter where he is standing, or how wrong (or evil) he may be!

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pitt.../s_455930.html

Another good reason why we need a stand your ground law or Castle law in PA.

**TonyF** · November 27th, 2006, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by craigc

Had a chance to talk to my son in laws friend over Thanksgiving.He had just taken a self defense class in Lancaster were the supposedly NRA instructor told him that if you can YOU MUST attempt to flee your home!But from what I read or maybe mis-understand is that we don't have to attempt retreat from our home so TRUE OR FALSE?

You are under no obligation to flee or retreat from your home.

Also un-clear is the Brandishing law?

I don't know if there is a specific law on the books prohibiting *brandishing*.

IMO there are three distinct acts.

Brandishing is usually characterized by presenting a weapon menacingly but not necessarily pointing it at someone for the sole purpose of intimidation. I'm sure that would fall into the category of wreckless endangerment. IOW it certainly violates some other statute.

However, there is a big difference between brandishing and being threatened with death or serious injury and consequently presenting the weapon, pointing in on target and if the situation warrants, de-escalating to low ready if the threat ceases and desists. I would not view that as brandishing because you had reason to believe you or another were about to be seriously harmed or killed.

OTOH, pointing a weapon at someone without justifcation is a serious felony in PA.

**craigc** · November 27th, 2006, 12:57 PM

I kinda mean if you had to pull to de-fuse a situation if you had to?

For instance say I'm a heart patient(true btw) and can't really re-treat safely could a person if confronted with bodily harm plus if he's got med problems brandish legaly ?

**craigc** · November 27th, 2006, 01:00 PM

Originally Posted by TonyF

You are under no obligation to flee or retreat from your home.

I don't know if there is a specific law on the books prohibiting *brandishing*.

IMO there are three distinct acts.

Brandishing is usually characterized by presenting a weapon menacingly but not necessarily pointing it at someone for the sole purpose of intimidation. I'm sure that would fall into the category of wreckless endangerment. IOW it certainly violates some other statute.

However, there is a big difference between brandishing and being threatened with death or serious injury and consequently presenting the weapon, pointing in on target and if the situation warrants, de-escalating to low ready if the threat ceases and desists. I would not view that as brandishing because you had reason to believe you or another were about to be seriously harmed or killed.

OTOH, pointing a weapon at someone without justifcation is a serious felony in PA.

ok you answered my question on brandishing must have been posting at the same time but I DO see we have 2 conflicting theorys on re-treating with in your home

**LittleRedToyota** · November 27th, 2006, 01:06 PM

Originally Posted by TonyF

You are under no obligation to flee or retreat from your home.

As Tony pointed out, you are NOT under any obligation to retreat from your own home. Here is the section of the PA code that states so:

PA Consolidated Statues

Crimes and Offenses (Title 18)

Chapter 5: General Principles of Justification

Section 505: Use of force in self-protection

Subsection b: Limitations on justifying necessesity for use of force:

The use of deadly force is not justifiable under this section unless the actor believes that such force is necessary to protect himself against death, serious bodily injury, kidnapping or sexual intercourse compelled by force or threat; nor is it justifiable if:

Paragraph 2:

the actor, with the intent of causing death or serious bodily injury, provoked the use of force against himself in the same encounter; or

the actor knows that he can avoid the necessity of using such force with complete safety by retreating or by surrendering possession of a thing to a person asserting a claim of right thereto or by complying with a demand that he abstain from any action which he has no duty to take, except that:

(A) the actor is not obliged to retreat from his dwelling or place of work, unless he was the initial aggressor or is assailed in his place of work by another person whose place of work the actor knows it to be; and
(B) a public officer justified in using force in the performance of his duties or a person justified in using force in his assistance or a person justified in using force in making an arrest or preventing an escape is not obliged to desist from efforts to perform such duty, effect such arrest or prevent such escape because of resistance or threatened resistance by or on behalf of the person against whom such action is directed.

the instructor was incorrect (or your son-in-law misunderstood him) on the point of having to retreat from your own home.

you can see the entire text here:

http://members.aol.com/StatutesP8/18PA505.html

also, even outside of your home you are only required to retreat if you can do so "with complete safety".