Discussion: Keeping the gun in the fight, part 1 (reloading)

[vicious]

As promised, I'm going to try to occasionally add discussion topics to the tactics and training forum in the hopes it may become a better resource for those on PAFOA who are interested in defensive firearm use. (Thank silverado_mick for the idea)

The way I'm going to start this is by briefly offering a topic for discussion and getting a page or so of discussion before posting my own views on the topic in any great detail (though i will ask questions to stir the pot a bit). I'm doing it this way because I don't really want to lecture. I want people to post their opinions and have a healthy discussion and at some point I'll join in.

The prerequisites for posting in these threads are only having an open mind and a willingness to reevaluate your own tactics, techniques, and procedures. This doesn't mean you have to change any of them, just simply be open to others views. People posting here may come from a variety of backgrounds and there may be mission requirements accounting for their differing TTP's. This means there may be a number of reasonable ways to solve to a problem.

Once again, these threads will be covering topics pertaining to defensive use of a firearm. This does not mean that whatever gun games you play are irrelevant. In fact, some widely used and very solid techniques have come from competition. However, this does not mean all of them are appropriate for defensive use. What we want to cover in these threads is not just what you do, but why you do it. If you do not have this reasoned out in your head, you may simply want to sit back and read or, better yet, ask questions. Similarly, if the scope of your knowledge in defensive firearm use comes from the internet, you will probably get more from asking questions than stating a secondhand opinion. There are some very knowledgeable people on this board who are quite adept at explaining logically why things are done/not done a certain way. A good way to approach that would be "I read somewhere/I was told that (insert TTP here) is good for ABC under XYZ conditions, what does everyone think of that and why." or "In (insert shooting sport here) we practice (insert TTP here), what does everyone think about its applicability for XYZ." Simply appealing to authority will not be considered a valid or logical rationale for anything.

Let's get started...

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This is part 1. Part 2 will be malfunction clearance and part 3 will be one-hand manipulations

First some terminology so we can all use common terms to avoid confusion. Techniques for reloading tend to fall into two categories: reactive and proactive. A reactive reload is one we do in response to a certain condition. That condition is, generally, completely running out of ammunition in the gun. This tends to happen in the middle of engaging a threat. A proactive reload is, simply stated, something we do to prevent the condition that is running out of ammo in the gun. This is, generally, topping off a partially loaded gun with a full magazine while there are no active threats, in preparation for other threats that may present themselves.

Reactive reloads

As far as reactive reloads go, there is generally only one technique that is taught:

-EMERGENCY RELOAD (ER): The gun is completely empty and there is an immediate need to make it not empty--usually so you can start making it empty again in a productive manner. This is usually accomplished by discarding the empty magazine, replacing it with a full one and chambering a round.

Proactive reloads

As far as proactive reloads go, there are significantly more techniques out there. The purpose, once again being to top off a partially loaded firearm in between potential engagements. I'll tip my hand slightly and say that I use one of these primarily, keep another in the toolbox for certain occasions and think one is...inadvisable.

-SPEED RELOAD (SR): Is conducted just like an emergency reload but instead of discarding an empty magazine, you are discarding the magazine along with whatever ammunition is left in it then replacing it with a full magazine

-TACTICAL RELOAD (TR): The shooter accesses a spare magazine with the non-dominant, brings it to the weapon, releases the magazine in the weapon into the off hand where it is held while the replacement magazine is placed into the magazine well. The non-full magazine is then secured in some manner.

-RELOAD WITH RETENTION (RR): The magazine in the firearm is released into the non-dominant hand and secured in some manner. A full magazine is then inserted into the firearm.

Discuss what you like/don't like, what you use/don't use, and how you go about doing it in detail (where you hold the gun, how you remove the magazine, the placement of your spare magazines if relevant, how you charge the gun, etc). Most importantly, discuss the principles behind everything you do. Feel free to add anything that you think I omitted from the above terminology. Most importantly, keep it civil and try to open your mind to new ideas.

[bigdawgbeav]

I would think it's all situational based and training based. TBH, I never really gave much thought to reloading. When I'm at the range I empty a mag, drop it and reload. I would have to say it's closest to RR, but the mags are empty.

I have see TR and SR and have been anxious to give these things a try. I'm headed to the range soon and will practice and see what feels right.

Thanks for starting this discussion. I'm interested in learning more.

[vicious]

Bigdawg, thanks for posting and i'm glad to hear that you are eager to learn. I would advise finding an good defensive firearm instructor to show you some techniques, explain when and why they are used, how to perform them properly, and how to incorporate them into a training regimen. Trying to mimic something you saw or read probably isn't the best way to gather tools for your toolbox. If you start practicing it the wrong way, it will be that much harder to correct in the future. Furthermore, as I hinted in the discussion prompt, I personally don't use or like some of these options for various reasons. As the discussion has just started, we have yet to add any context to these techniques.

There's no shame in recognizing that this is an area where you may be deficient (in fact, that's a good thing). Like i said, this is a thread for learning, and I think the lesson that you need to take away from this isn't "I need to try all these things an see what feels right," but "I need to seek professional training and learn what works and why."

PM me if you want a recommendation for top-notch defensive firearm training in the Philadelphia area

[photoshooter]

Defensive training is new to me so a lot of my regimen is being overhauled.

One concept I'm working with that crosses all of these types of reloads is the idea of keeping your eyes on the threat or the area of concern during a reload. Previously any type of reload seemed to take place around my waist area. I suppose that made the most sense since it's where the fresh mag is located. It doesn't take much defensive training to show how vulnerable you are when you look down toward your waist in a defensive situation.

So my first order of business was to practice all reloads at face level so that my weapon and my environment are all in my field of view. Admittedly this was difficult to get used to but is now becoming very natural.

[Guns4Fun]

Hi,

Vicious (adj): Marked by violence or ferocity. Use only when necessary.


I like the idea of this but honestly these topics usually turn into shit storms. Some people are very passionate about their training ideals.

I am going to ask my question of you again. Who are you? You are new here and I don't know you. What areas have you been trained in?

I have seen you tell others to PM you about specific classes - why is that? Why not post a class review for all to see? Even if your review is negative.

Are you a shill for some training Co?

I personally know many of the other folks that post in this section. I would like to know a little about you too.

Me, I’m just a regular Joe that has only taken a handful of pistol / carbine classes. Honestly, I do it more for fun than anything else. Not that I don't value training for what it is - training - I just think I’m more likely to die from heart disease or a car crash than die from a shoot out in the street or a home invasion. So, every once in a while I like to dust of the guns put on some gear and have a lot of fun shooting and learning. Plus I figure if I’m going to carry a handgun regularly, being trained to use it is the right thing to do.

I rarely post an opinion on techniques because I’m mostly open to all ideas and I don't feel I’m qualified enough to tell other people what is best for them.

So, please tell us a little about yourself.

Thank you,

G4F
Carl

[Guns4Fun]

Okay,

I will post my opinion (not technique) about reloads.

I think people spend too much time nit picking on what the best way is.

Lets face it. If I, a Civi can't get the job done with 17 rounds of 9mm or 30 rounds of 5.56 I need to be more practiced in accuracy.

I can't recall a time where a civi in my area needed to perform a tac reload because they were being attacked by a horde of Zombies.

It's nice to discuss / argue about and all but lets be real, my need for a reload - unless there is a malfunction - is going to be very unlikely.

[photoshooter]

Why not post a class review for all to see? Even if your review is negative.

Review of Armed Dynamics Defensive Pistol 1 class


I understand where you're coming from. On the internet it's hard to know who to trust. That being said no one really has any obligation to provide credentials. I say this because we all value some privacy. You read the stuff and if you like it fine otherwise you just move on.

Back to your post.
I was looking for training and saw several posts by Vicious that piqued my curiosity. He had recently joined the site and had few posts so I had suspicions as well about being a shill. It's our nature to be cautious I guess.

You don't know me either but for what it's worth I got to meet and work with Vicious. He's a regular guy who has dedicated more time to training (across several disciplines) than the average Joe. He's also been very upfront about it all if you search out his posts. He's got a lot of insight. Most I agree with, some I don't but all of it certainly worth hearing.


link to post
No problem. As i said in the AAR, I work in EMS. I carry a firearm only as an armed civillian. I have no LE or Mil background. I do however take personal protection very seriously. I have taken hundreds of hours with nationally recognized instructors/companies like Tactical Response, Trident Concepts, Michael DeBethencourt, etc. I have also taken a couple classes with other small local companies like Argive and Black Hat, which I mention because those companies are run by good people. I also involve myself heavily in other martial arts. The term i used in the AAR, "tactical academic" is one i like to use for myself as well. It's simply an area of study i choose to focus on for its profound practical applications.

All pretty boring. I'm no commando, just someone with more experience in a narrow field than the average. This simply gives me a different perspective that is no more or less valid than Al's. My intention was simply to communicate that this course has something to offer to everyone regardless of their prior training.


Just trying to help here.
After all, he could spout out all of the credentials in the world. Would you be able to trust that post any more than his other posts?


As far as shitstorm threads; it doesn't have to be that way. Lots of people are passionate about their training techniques. I personally would love to hear from all of them. I keep an open mind. I may be doing something that suits me just fine but if I read something I deem to be better I have no problem changing. I'm always willing to learn something new.

[photoshooter]

Lets face it. If I, a Civi can't get the job done with 17 rounds of 9mm or 30 rounds of 5.56 I need to be more practiced in accuracy.

What about a mag malfunction? You pull the trigger and "click" no boom? Now you're 17 rounds are 0 rounds.

I can't recall a time where a civi in my area needed to perform a tac reload because they were being attacked by a horde of Zombies.

No argument here, in theory we're on the same page.
But... I also don't remember a time when someone went postal and started shooting up everybody on a military base (of all places). Then one day I turned on the news and...


It's nice to discuss / argue about and all but lets be real, my need for a reload - unless there is a malfunction - is going to be very unlikely.

Again, I'm in agreement in as much as I too don't think there's much of a chance I'll ever find myself in such a situation. But I decided a while ago that if I was going to own handguns I wanted to be 100% proficient in every possible aspect of usage/deployment/manipulation/troubleshooting etc. I also find it interesting, empowering (and even fun) to learn even if I may never have need for this info.

If we were going to limit forum discussion only to things that are going to be likely or things that are going to be needed by a majority of us it would be a very quiet place here. Statistically a very small percentage of readers here will ever "need" a handgun. A much, much smaller percentage will need two handguns. It's hard to imagine anyone here will need a dozen handguns. I'm grateful for all that but it's still fun to talk about

[vicious]

Guns4fun, the discussion about the need for carrying additional ammo is better left to this thread http://forum.pafoa.org/training-tact...xtra-ammo.html

If you want to discuss something off topic, PM me. These threads will certainly collapse into shit storms if we can't at least follow that guideline. Now you have learned the nefarious intent behind my PM scheme...I don't like disrupting threads with off topic conversation. I understand this may be controversial around these parts.



Apologies in advance for the snark, but let's keep this thread on topic so your prophecy of thread collapse isn't so self-fulfilling.

[silverado_mick]

My $.02...

Reactive reloads- self explanitory. Drop the empty mag, stuf the fress one in, drop the slide, and get back in the fight. You do it high in front of your face so that you can keep your eyes on your target, and you do it while you are moving to or making yourself small behind good solid cover.

On the more proactive end of things, I prefer to top off with retention ala the RR option in your OP. I came of age during the era of the tac reload, and never had enough juice to argue with an instructor about fumbling with two mags in one hand. I never really got good at TR's and never saw the point. I am far less likely to drop something if I remove the partial mag and retain it, then insert a fresh one seperately. Proactive reloads are done when you get a chance to do them, meaning when you have a good secure position and nobody is actively trying to kill you, so what's the point of rushing yourself through it and ending up dropping both mags that you are fumbling with in your off hand.

YMMV of course.