AAR-MCS Intro to Tactical Carbine

[synergy]

I hope we could all agree that a civilian scenario where you would grab an AR, have time to stuff a mag in a pants pocket, but not have time to get anything else AND you then run out of ammo is hard to imagine. I.e., a spontaneous self defense event which exceeds 40 - 60 carbine rounds.

Putting that aside, I personally like the rationale espoused in the recent Black Hat Training carbine class (great class, though I don't have time to write an AAR), which is: train to do all your reloads from belt mags; then, if you have pouches or vests or whatever, restock the belt carriers from them during a lull, as opposed to actively reloading from vests. It appeals to me but might not work for others.
Of course, if you have an AK, probably belt carriers aren't going to work anyway (I have one -- couldn't really make it work).

I will admit I'm a fan of this as well, as are a number of other guys I know of.

What didn't work on the AK belt pouch? Never tried one of those...

[dgg9]

What didn't work on the AK belt pouch? Never tried one of those...

The sheer curvature of an AK 30-rd mag made it hard to manipulate.

But maybe I should revisit. Up to now, I've been following the notion that if you carry your spare pistol mag w/ rounds forward, you should do the same for your AR spare. But that's just an abstract rationale, and IMO since the size and shape of the mags are so different, there's no reason to be the same for same's sake. The other reason is that, though I practiced drawing and presenting for reload a rounds-forward AR mag many times at home, when I got to the class, and there was just a little time pressure / stress, I immediately did the "beer can" reload, and then had to reverse the mag on the fly. So my body says it wants to do the "beer can" reload(*) -- why fight it?

So maybe if the AK mag is the other direction, the curvature won't be a problem to manipulate...though it would still be hard to conceal. Of course if I'm carrying an AK in Center City, the visibility of my spare mag is low in the priority queue.

* there's a beer/waistline joke to be made there -- well earned in my case -- but I'll pass.

[vicious]

I am sure many disagree with how far firearms are down on the list, But this is based on daily need, time and opportunity for use, and preventing the need for any level of force.

Not at all, George. The training and skill requirements for most civilians is actually closer to the skill-set given to executive protection specialists than the military or law enforcement.

BTW, Nick Hughes just came out with his book "How to be Your Own Bodyguard" on kindle. It's a quick read and has some excellent material in it. Anyone who disagrees with what you just laid out needs to read it. Anyone who does agree needs to read it too, frankly. I think you would dig it as well having trained with Nick.

I personally like the rationale espoused in the recent Black Hat Training carbine class, which is: train to do all your reloads from belt mags; then, if you have pouches or vests or whatever, restock the belt carriers from them during a lull, as opposed to actively reloading from vests. It appeals to me but might not work for others.

Don, I actually didn't like that particular line of thought when i took the BHT course with you. I understand the theory behind it being that you already have ingrained muscle memory from your pistol practice to reload from that area, but the way I look at it there is going to be 2 possible states of dress i can be in and need to deploy a carbine. Either there is a bump in the night where i don't have a belt on my boxer shorts, or I have retreated back to my rifle and my belt is already occupied with my EDC gear. In both situations I require a solution that can be quickly added to what I am currently wearing without interfering. You'll remember i showed up for that class wearing jeans and a button-down shirt pulled over my standard EDC loadout and ran all my AK magazines out of a maxpedition fatboy i just slung over my shoulder. Since then i got an SOE micro rig which can be put on in about 5 seconds and doesn't block access to any of the gear i carry daily on my beltline. I feel like either of those setups is more practical for an armed civilian.

If i were a Swat cop going on call-outs, I might have found more utility in his suggestion.

*Disclaimer: I'm not trash talking the course in any way. Every course I attend i find things i can use and things I can't and this was just an example of one of the things i found that i noted as interesting but didn't incorporate into my own practice. There was nothing wrong with the course.

[Orive 8]

Back in the mid 90s or so, my agency switched over from 870s to Colt ARs with collapsible butt-stocks. One of the things that we had to look at was how was our patrol officer going to carry a spare mag.

Some suggested keep a spare mag in the glove box, the officer could grab it and stuff it in his back pocket. Not likely going to happen when thing are happening at "full speed".

Some said, get a clip on mag pouch that the officer can attach to his belt. Problem is, that most officers already have a full belt and there is no room to attach a spare mag.

We ended going with the Redi Mag system. Allowed our officers to jump out of the car with two 20 rd mags in the weapon. We decided early on to go with 20s not 30s, for several reasons, but that is another story.

The Redi Mag system worked really well for us. I had a chance to take several rifle classes using our patrol rifle set up and found the system very easy to use for "empty load drills" and "tactical load drills". Our officers, some gun guys (and gals) some not, found the system very easy to use also. The only real negative that some found with the Redi Mag system is the added weight.

I no longer have any use for an AR, but if I did, the Redi Mag system would be the first thing I installed on the gun.

Just another option for some to think about.

[vicious]

redi-mag is a good system. I would probably have one if i ran an AR. On an AK a redi-mag is known as duct tape.

[Shawn.L]

My opinion, for whats its worth, is that if I ever actually need my carbine I will only ever have whats on the gun (sound familiar?) .

having said that, if Im IN A CLASS then not carrying spare mags makes about as much sense as showing up with only whats on the gun , no ear pro, in my boxers with morning breath and after the first 30 rounds going home to reload.

the mags on my belt are there so that I have a supply of ammo in the least distracting way possible so I can concentrate on learning in the class, NOT so I can replicate some end of the world scenario.

And while this is a decent topic, I have no idea what it has to do with the OP except for being vaguely related to his opinions on how one should train.

personally I dont give one fuck about how he thinks I should train. he seems to think in a 4 hour intro course you can cover everything (except it seems marksmanship) up to an including malf clearance and room entry !

It has been pointed out to me by someone I respect that getting on george about his endless self promotion is less than genuine. Afterall , we do all do it, and we all promote the instructors we most favor or courses we host or what have you. Of course in the case of some of us, that promotion is at least honest.

So George wants to know why I have a hard on for him ?
Well, its not personal, I have been his student some time ago ( you guys can look up the somewhat positive but skeptical review I gave a few years back) , and its not worth my breath at this time to go into.

Suffice it to say I dont agree with what he teaches, find the sensationalistic posts he makes absurd, and so question him (and anyone like him) when they post things that make my teeth hurt.
Like teaching everything (but marksmanship!) up to malf clearance and room entry in a 4 hour intro course.

[vicious]

My opinion, for whats its worth, is that if I ever actually need my carbine I will only ever have whats on the gun (sound familiar?).

That does sound familiar because that seems to be what a lot of people teach. I think the reason it has become such a prevalent mindset is due to a lack of creativity. I never trust other people when they tell me about what my own limits are without first testing them myself

So i ran a test just now with the aforementioned setups I have.

How long does it take to add a number of spare magazines and a trauma kit to your person as opposed to just a rifle? All tests will be conducted from my bed. I will lay supine wearing only boxers and a t-shirt covered by the heavy blankets on my bed. I will start a stopwatch, get out of bed, go to where i keep my rifle and sling it. The clock stops when the rifle and all gear is slung and i have a full firing grip in the rifle. I repeat this three times.

I then repeated this task with the fatboy and the micro rig.

I am aware that i am awake to begin this test, but that is irrelevant as i am only comparing the times required to complete said task. The times themselves are meaningless, but the differences in time are what i'm looking for. The difference in time should be the same whether i'm accessing the rifle and kit from my bed or the trunk of my car, or wherever.

Rifle only: ~4 seconds
Rifle and fatboy: ~6 seconds
Rifle and micro-rig: ~8 seconds

If I'm way behind the ball, I takes me approx 1.5 seconds to simply access my handgun and probably even less to just grab an improvised weapon and start beating someone with it.

So, in just 2 seconds on average, I can add multiple magazines and a trauma kit to my person. simply by using forethought and planning.

So, the only real reason that you will only have what's on the gun is because you didn't question dogma invented by a bunch of cops and soldiers who only know how long it takes to assemble their own war kit, which is completely inappropriate for my purposes.

[PeteG]

"So, the only real reason that you will only have what's on the gun is because you didn't question dogma invented by a bunch of cops and soldiers who only know how long it takes to assemble their own war kit, which is completely inappropriate for my purposes."

I could understand your post, right up to this part. Beside being unfair and unnecessarily harsh, your assumptions - rising to the level of accusations - are unfounded.

I am one of those people who suggest to students they will most likely only have time to get thier weapon and whatever is attached to it. I am not a cop or a soldier, and I would hate to think my opinions (I prefer "opinions" to "dogma") are because I only know how to assemble my own "war kit" (of which I have none).

It's always good to experiment, and measure things. But you left an extremely important factor out of your experiment: you neglect to account for what is going on to motivate you to take up your carbine in the first place.

If you heard there was a mob rioting in the neighborhood and you wanted to be ready, you have the luxury of time. But at 3:00 a.m., out of a sound sleep, with your child screaming or someone moving through your home, most people will not be nearly so efficient as you were during your tests. Of course, I have not tested most people, but I would be willing to bet on it.

Try your experiment where the clock starts when you hear one of your children scream, and ends when the (experimenal) bad guy leaves with him or her, or breaks thier neck to shut them up. If you arrive where you are needed .1 seconds after the damage is done, replete with enough equipment to sustain an extended firefight, it is a "fail."

Four additional seconds to get your micor rig? That's an eternity during a sudden emergency. That time might well be better spenting moving to the rescue, dialing 911, communicating with your partner, verifying your excape route is clear, or doing any number of other things your personal circumstances migiht dictate. Of course, if you live alone and all you want to do is get to your safe spot and arm up, it might work for you.

It is also important to recognize one will not likely need more than a few rounds to either resolve a situation or be put out of action. I therefore question the value of taking time to assemble the extra gear, where time is so important.

Sure, this is just my opinion. But is not based upon dogmatic adherence to some school of thought. I did not come to this discipline yesterday, and I have done some experiments, too.

After I woke up to a vitual riot in my back yard, it seemed to take me an eternity to pull on a pair of pants I had ready to go (with holser, phone, light and spare magazine already on the belt), put the pistol in the holster, slip on some shoes, grab my rifle and vest (I put the vest on I moved to the door), and get ouside to sort things out. It felt like I was moving in slow motion the whole time.

In light of how very long it seemed to take me (despite advance preparation), I later did some timed runs. It takes almost two minutes for me to get all that done in a deliberate fashion - and that does not include dialing 911 (which was handled by my wife, who might not be there next time).

Of course, pants, shoes and the vest would not be necessary if I were going to stay put. All well and good if one has the luxury of staying put.

I had another experience that ended in my living room with 12 cops of both genders, one drunk intruder and me in my underpants. I got my rifle, and got 911 on the line, and felt I was the safest person on the block. But you can bet my attention was very focused on things other than more gear or putting on pants. Being undressed never entered my mind until 20 minutes after the whole thing was over.

One may decide I am not sufficiently trained, not sufficiently prepared, not sufficiently equipped, or just incompetent. Believe what you want; it's your hide. But it is unfair to assert that what I and many others teach is not justified by anything more than dogma, or to think such a widly held point of view can be dismissed with a stop watch.

.

[vicious]

I may have failed to express adequately that my kit includes more than just magazines. It also includes medical equipment and a charged cellular phone among other things. The extra ammunition, if anything , is the least important part of the kit.

So that 2 seconds i take to throw my fatboy over my shoulder isn't just preparation for the fight, but also preparation for the aftermath. It is worth a few seconds to have these things before running off into an unknown situation.

Perhaps you should reassess. You might not need the ammo, sure, but follow your own logic.

Try your experiment where the clock starts when you hear one of your children scream, and ends when the (experimenal) bad guy leaves with him or her, or breaks thier neck to shut them up. If you arrive where you are needed .1 seconds after the damage is done, replete with enough equipment to sustain an extended firefight, it is a "fail."

So you hear the sounds of violence already in your home and you decide not to take an extra second to throw the bag over your shoulder. Then you arrive, deal with the threat and find your family member stabbed, shot or otherwise injured. Now you have to go get both a phone to call 911 and a medical kit to treat injuries, likely taking significantly longer than 2 seconds. Getting there 2 seconds quicker in no way assures that damage hasn't already been done. That sound of your child screaming may be because he is getting a knife plunged into him at that very moment. What if the reason your kid is screaming at 3am is because he injured himself dicking around and putting his arm through a plate glass window and it has nothing to do with an intruder? Then i guess the big waste of time was slinging the rifle because what your really need is a tourniquet for that severed brachial artery. That is also a fail.

An ounce of preparation saves you a ton of trouble down the line. I'm sure i don't have to tell you that. Maybe i could have phrased how i ended my earlier post differently, but the point still stands that the only reason there is to only have what is attached to your rifle is if you haven't come up with an usable alternative.

I hope we're understanding one another now.

[dgg9]

Don, I actually didn't like that particular line of thought when i took the BHT course with you. I understand the theory behind it being that you already have ingrained muscle memory from your pistol practice to reload from that area, but the way I look at it there is going to be 2 possible states of dress i can be in and need to deploy a carbine. Either there is a bump in the night where i don't have a belt on my boxer shorts, or I have retreated back to my rifle and my belt is already occupied with my EDC gear.

(Actually, I was referring to the 2 day class they had 2 weekends ago, not the 1 day version we went to a year ago -- but same instructors and same theory espoused).

That's why I stressed that this was a personal decision, whose validity is only for me, as far as I'm willing to advocate.

Indeed, as you say, this entire discussion revolves around what each of thinks is the likely scenario. So, really, none of us is "wrong," since we're all touting different scenarios, and IMO each is correct, if his premises are granted.

MY scenario is: I live in the city, in the third floor of a townhouse, with a long, winding staircase, and tight quarters. I live alone. If I hear a bump in the night (and see no blue flashing lights outside), my presumption is entirely that this is a criminal invasion. Between the tight quarters and the fact that I am about 1,000x more confident in my pistol handling than rifle, I will reach for a G17 and, if there's time, electronic earmuffs that sit next to the gun. I have no scenario I can think of that requires me to grab and go with a rifle. But that's just me and my prediction -- the latter and $1.50 won't even get you a coffee in my neighborhood.

Anything where I, as a civilian, require a rifle, is some rather speculative Rodney King like upheaval, or something very much like it. In that case, I have time to get dressed, attach an AR belt mag if I care to, and then wait, ready, in my house.

IMO, no other scenario is really worth (me) worrying about or training for. But, ask 100 gun owners what they think they really will use a rifle for, and you'll get 100 different answers. I'm not going to debate that my expectations are more objectively correct than anyone else's. What I DO know, pretty solidly, is my relative handgun vs long gun skills (lopsided), the layout of my residence, and the lack of anything forcing me to leave it and engage outside.