Need opinion on new rifle...

[Brudog]

I am contemplating a new rifle in .308. I have been leaning towards the Savage Law Enforcement line. I will primarily be using it for short to mid range target shooting (100-300 yards since I don't have anywhere longer to shoot) and I am not a professional sniper. I may use it for hunting but more than likely not as I have other lighter rifles for that.

I have narrowed my selection down to three models....

Model: 10 FCP HS Precision Approx $925
Model: 10 FCP-K Approx $725
Model: 10 FCP-SR Approx $925

...or possibly a Model: 12 BTCSS in .223 as a bench/varmint rifle which is approx. $875. I already own a Remington Sportsman 78 in .223 which I might keep for hunting.

Feel free to check these out at http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/models/

I like the fluted barrel and muzzle brake but also like the higher capacity magazine. The HS stock is nice but I think the Savage Accu Stock would work.

I value the opinion of people here and would be curious which you would prefer and why. Thanks for taking the time to offer an opinion.

[red dog]

i have the 10 flcp-k. it has been without a doubt the most accurate out of the box rifle i have ever gotten. accu trigger and accu stock are both awesome. muzzle break works as it should. this rifle is in .308, one of my favorite calibers. the rifle is a bit heavy for hunting purposes. this gun is a honest sub moa gun right out of the box. i worked up a load for it as follows: 168 gr. amax, lapua brass, federal 210 match primers, 43.5 gr. vihtavuori n150, col. 2.800 this gives me 16 thousandths to the rifling. approx. fps. 2500, do not have a chrongraph i base this on bullet drop at different distances and using the ballistic charts. i should get plenty of life out of the brass, they still fit in my case gauge after being shot. as you can tell i love this gun best money i ever spent.

[XACEX]

SCAR HEAVY

[Brudog]

i have the 10 flcp-k. it has been without a doubt the most accurate out of the box rifle i have ever gotten. accu trigger and accu stock are both awesome. muzzle break works as it should. this rifle is in .308, one of my favorite calibers. the rifle is a bit heavy for hunting purposes. this gun is a honest sub moa gun right out of the box. i worked up a load for it as follows: 168 gr. amax, lapua brass, federal 210 match primers, 43.5 gr. vihtavuori n150, col. 2.800 this gives me 16 thousandths to the rifling. approx. fps. 2500, do not have a chrongraph i base this on bullet drop at different distances and using the ballistic charts. i should get plenty of life out of the brass, they still fit in my case gauge after being shot. as you can tell i love this gun best money i ever spent.

Sounds like you found a good setup. I assumed, based on what I read that it is a good deal. I just saw the FCP-HR and thought I might like the "LOOK" of the 10 round mag but I would have to buy muzzle break and it is $200 more. Plus I don't know if I like the digital camo stock.

Have you been able to find a larger capacity mag for the FCP-K? I think it is the one I will get for now. I might add the 12 BTCSS down the road as it will be cheaper to shoot.

Any advise on a scope? I want a fixed 10x with a mil/mil configuration regarding the reticle and turret relationship. It is much easier to use than trying to convert mil to MOA for adjustments. I have been looking at a WOTAC and a Falcon Menace. The Falcon is adjustable but it is a first focal plane reticle setup so it will stay accurate at all magnification levels.

I am also glad you like the AccuStock as I was considering getting the HS Precision model but I didn't want to sacrifice the fluting and the muzzle break.

[red dog]

brudog, the pricing you were quoting was right in there so your good on that. i have been looking for a 10 rounder to try in mine, i hope they fit it would round out a good set up. only problem the pricing i have seen for these rare beasts is right at 100 $. the scope i am currently using is relatively inexpensive but has been spot on and repeatable. it is a millett 4-16 with the fine cross hairs and dot. paid 200 for it on sale at midway. the dot is very small so you can be precise with it. would rather have a night force but you just have to be cost conscious sometimes. the wotac and falcon i am not familiar with so no advice there. the accu stock is awesome as you probable know it is a aluminum rail in the stock. when you draw down the action screws it pulls the action reward and down to the aluminum, makes it rock solid. it you get one of theses models just check to see if the action screws are evenly tight. plenty of room between the barrel and stock so no interference there. i have found you can shoot 10 rounds or so in rapid fashion until the barrel starts to warm up, even so poi does not change but a i/2 inch or so. no cold barrel first shot issues either. i have several remington 700 rifles one 7 mag hunting gun bdl and a older 22-250 bdl heavy barrel for hogs and such. the 7 mag is typical for a hunting rifle accuracy but the 22-250 is right in there with the savage. only difference is the rem. needs cleaning every 20 rounds or so or the groups start to spread( maybe the barrel is about shot) the savage on the other hand will go at least 50 rounds, have not tried more shots than that at one sitting.

[Brudog]

reddog,

Here is a link to a vendor who sells 9 round mags for that gun for $80. It is one of the reasons why I was looking at the FCP-SR as it comes with the tem round mag and the one piece rail already installed. I would just need to buy the muzzle break but it is also $200 more than the FCP-K. I could probably buy the FCP-K and just buy this $80 mag and be done.

I was told these are plug and play with no modification on the FCP-K.
http://www.sharpshootersupply.com/

"HIGH CAPACITY DBM MAGAZINE"

With the introduction of the center-feed magazine system, the DBM is quite popular. We have had many requests for higher capacity magazines, and we are offering a high capacity magazine with the capacity of 9 rounds in the .308 family of cartridges.

[Tomcat088]

I am contemplating a new rifle in .308. I have been leaning towards the Savage Law Enforcement line. I will primarily be using it for short to mid range target shooting (100-300 yards since I don't have anywhere longer to shoot) and I am not a professional sniper. I may use it for hunting but more than likely not as I have other lighter rifles for that.

I have narrowed my selection down to three models....

Model: 10 FCP HS Precision Approx $925
Model: 10 FCP-K Approx $725
Model: 10 FCP-SR Approx $925

...or possibly a Model: 12 BTCSS in .223 as a bench/varmint rifle which is approx. $875. I already own a Remington Sportsman 78 in .223 which I might keep for hunting.

Feel free to check these out at http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/models/

I like the fluted barrel and muzzle brake but also like the higher capacity magazine. The HS stock is nice but I think the Savage Accu Stock would work.

I value the opinion of people here and would be curious which you would prefer and why. Thanks for taking the time to offer an opinion.

The first thing I wanted to say is that you're looking at some pretty good and reliable models of rifles. I believe that any of them would probably serve you well for just some general target shooting from 100-300 yards. I have my preference, but I guess I'll just run over some of the main specs and what sets them apart from each other. There are several features and specs that these rifles share that aren't worth going too in depth about. They all have a 24" heavy barrel, and they are all a 1:10" twist. We'll talk a bit about fluting, muzzle brakes, etc. later, but they do all share the length and twist rate. They all have detachable box magazines, although some with different capacity, which we'll talk about later. They all have the accutrigger, which works well and is one of the best factory triggers out there. All are built on the same action, and all are capable of more than enough accuracy.

First we'll talk about stocks. I personally feel, and I think that most people will agree with me, the edge will go to the HS Pecision, even if it's just by a little. Honestly, the key features of the stock are basically the same. The accustock has the full length aluminum bedding block, and so does the HS Precision. Personally, I think that the ergonomics of HS Precision lend themself better to precision work, and also aesthetically. The vertical pistol grip makes it easier to pull the trigger straight to the rear, which does help with consistency and precision work. I think that the higher cheek piece on the HS Precision allows you to get a better and more consistent cheek weld. This will help so that you don't get parallax error, it reduces fatigue on the neck and shoulders, and will probably be just a bit more comfortable. The accustock WILL get the job done, and I have no doubt that in terms of firmly and consistently holding the action in place, it'll do just as good of a job. So mechanically, they're basically almost identical. I personally believe that in terms of aesthetics, for a heavy barreled rifle, the foregrip of the accustock is a bit too thin, not a lot, but just a little. It looks like it's almost barely there with the large barrel inlet, and I think the forestock just looks better on the HS Precision. The rear stock area of the rifle just depends on what you want to use it for, and personal preference. I personally think the comb angle is a bit low on the accustock, and it will not quite lend itself to as good of a sight picture as even some other "hunting style" stocks. I own and use both styles of stocks, and like them both, so they make little difference there. So with most everything being the same or a wash, I think the edge barely goes to the Savage 10 FCP HS Precision.

Now then, let's go to some accessory features that kind of seperate the rest of these models. Now as far as I know, the Savage 10 FCP HS Precision does NOT come with a muzzle brake, and the barrel is not fluted. The Savage 10 FCP-K comes with a fluted barrels AND a muzzle brake. Now as far as I know, the Savage 10 FCP SR comes with a heavy fluted barrel, NO muzzle brake. First we'll jump into the flutes, since that's pretty easy. Honestly, flutes have every little effect on anything, and they're mostly for looks, although there are some minor performance benefits. Mostly the difference is in the slight weight savings that you get; how much weight is saved will depend on the length of the barrel, it's contour, and how deeply the flutes are. Most of the time, even on a long barrel that's fluted pretty deeply, you won't shave off much over about 1/2 lb. Now that can be a bunch, and help with the balance of the rifle, but lots of times it's less than this. They do help the barrel cool down faster because of the increased surface area, but it's not a ton, but it's worth mentioning. Usually the added cost isn't quite worth the benefits, unless you just really want a fluted barrel or have really strict weight requirements. On a range rifle that you're mostly going to be target shooting with, lots probably not offhand, and only a possibility of hunting with it, I wouldn't put too much of a stress on the feature.

Muzzle brakes to most people are one of those "take it" or "leave it" features. I'm not completely opposed to muzzle brakes, but I just don't think the "benefits" are usually worth the "costs". You get extra added length to the barrel that is NOT usually included in the length of the barrel. So the 24" barrel that has the muzzle brake on it may actually be 26" or a bit longer. This will cut down on how easily the rifle handles, and effect the balance a little. If you have one installed later, you know the finished length, but lots of manufacturers don't include it on the listed length because too long of a barrel isn't considered a desirable feature. The other thing that I really dislike about all muzzle brakes is the significant increase in noise. Muzzle brakes are LOUD, some more so than others, but they're all loud. If you shoot at a range with lanes and others beside you, I assure you they will NOT appreciate the loudness, or the pressure wave/concussion that gets vented in their faces. It's also important to mention that not all muzzle brake designs work as well at decreasing felt recoil as others. I'm not saying that this one doesn't work, just that you can't make a generality about muzzle brake effectiveness. Personally, I think the muzzle brake looks UGLY, and a bit sloppy; breaking up the aesthetics of the rifle/barrel. I know as a long range shooter, most of the time when I see a muzzle brake on a rifle like that, I usually think that it looks like a "newb" or a "mall ninja" that wanted a cool tactical feature on their rifle. That way not mean anything to you, and that's ok if it doesn't; I just wanted you to know how some others will take that muzzle brake. The other thing is, I don't understand why a heavy barreled, fairly heavy stocked .308 needs a muzzle brake. I mean it's not like it recoils that hard, is going to beat you up, or anything like that. It's just a .308, it's not like it's some light weight sporting contour and weight rifle chambered in .300 winmag or ultramag. It's definitely not a feature that I think is worth throwing $200 away on when it's not necessary. In some instances, they are, but for the applications you've mentioned, I don't see how it is. You'd be MUCH better off putting the $200 into the scope and rings so that you don't end up with a piece of junk, than spending it on some muzzle brake.

With all of that said, I think that all of options are mostly just aesthetic, and for "cool" purposes. I definitely wouldn't let it play any part in being a major deciding factor for buying a rifle. IF barrels were the only thing I was going by, I'd probably go with the FCP SR. It's a nice heavy barrel, and it's fluted to save a little weight and cool off a touch faster. Both the HS Precision model and FCP SR don't have the silly looking muzzle brake, and I'd take either one of them over the FCP-K. I think the FCP-K is just a bit ugly, and it looks like an newb rifle for LR or Precision work. That's not to say that all muzzle brakes look that way, but that particular muzzle brake on that particular rifle DOES look that way to me.

Ok, so now let's get to another feature that you mentioned, and that's the detachable box magazines. They're all similar in that they all have detachable box magazines, and they're all Savage design. I've heard some rumors that the FCP SR will take AI magazines, but that hasn't been verified by anybody. I remember the same rumors were being said when Savage first came out with their own DBM, and the rumors were WRONG; they didn't work with AI magazines. So it's something to look a bit more into, but not something I would take for fact or allow to give the FCP SR an edge. The HS Precision and FCP-K basically have similar bottom metal with similar capacity, so they're even there. On the surface, the nice thing about the FCP SR is that it has a 10 round capacity. This can be a benefit, but depending on your setup, may not exactly be a good thing. A longer magazine means that the bottom of the rifle will stick out further. Depending on your setup, and if you're using a bench, type of bench, etc. it might actually get in the way and not allow you to use that particular setup. If you're running a bipod, it's not usually an issue, although shooting bipods off of benches can have their own little "complications". The other thing that you have to remember is that the larger round magazines may be more expensive or harder to find than the other Savage magazines. What's the point of having a higher capacity magazine if you can't find them, or if they cost so much you hardly own any? My guess is if you can find some higher capacity mags to fit the FCP-K, they will also fit the HS Precision model. The only reason they wouldn't is if the HS Precision model is using HS Precision's version of DBM, and if that's the case you can DEFINITELY find some higher capacity magazines for it. I'll go a bit more into some of the magazine and muzzle brake stuff at a later part in my post.

With all this being said, if all things were equal, I'd probably take the HS Precision model over all the others. The reason is that the stock CAN help you shoot better. It will put your hand in a better position for a better trigger pull, which is VERY important to accuracy and consistency, and it'll help put your head in a better position on the scope, which is VERY important to your accuracy, and fatigue (or lack thereof) to keep relaxed while shooting. Honestly, a fluted barrel, muzzle brake, 10 round magazine capacity, etc, will NOT help you be a better shooter. Some of those things might actually be detrimental to your shooting. Basically, they're some things that "look cool", but are just that; they won't help you shoot any better, cost to have the features added. If you're buying the rifle for looks, then you'll consider those things pretty heavy, if you're buying it to shoot well and help you as much as it can to do so, the decision is easy. Where it gets complicated though is "all things being equal". I realize you said you might not like the digicam, which if you're buying a rifle for look, will knock that rifle out of the running. If it bothers you that much, it's easily fixed with a can of spray paint. What the real issue is the difference in price between the FCP-K and the other two models. You've already expressed some budget constraints (which is fine and normal), and going with a cheap optic is NOT something that you want to do. So if buying one of the other models is something that will keep you from buying or saving up to get a decent scope, then that might be a reason to purchase the FCP-K, or to look at some other models of Savage rifles. Personally, I'd take the Savage FCP HS Precision, but that's just me.

Sounds like you found a good setup. I assumed, based on what I read that it is a good deal. I just saw the FCP-HR and thought I might like the "LOOK" of the 10 round mag but I would have to buy muzzle break and it is $200 more. Plus I don't know if I like the digital camo stock.

Have you been able to find a larger capacity mag for the FCP-K? I think it is the one I will get for now. I might add the 12 BTCSS down the road as it will be cheaper to shoot.

Any advise on a scope? I want a fixed 10x with a mil/mil configuration regarding the reticle and turret relationship. It is much easier to use than trying to convert mil to MOA for adjustments. I have been looking at a WOTAC and a Falcon Menace. The Falcon is adjustable but it is a first focal plane reticle setup so it will stay accurate at all magnification levels.

I am also glad you like the AccuStock as I was considering getting the HS Precision model but I didn't want to sacrifice the fluting and the muzzle break.

I wanted to mention again, that while the looks of the rifle are important, you're about to have over $1,000 invested in a rifle. Yes you want to like how it looks, but are you more concerned with how it looks, or how it shoots and if it helps you shoot better? If you really dislike the digital camo, it's easy to paint a rifle. Since you've already mentioned budget is an issue, and are talking about the Falcon Menace and WOTAC scopes, I wouldn't advise that you spend $200 extra for a muzzle brake. It's not necessary, it's just a "cool feature" and it won't help you shoot better. Spend the money on optics before you spend it on a muzzle brake.

You again mention magazine capacity in this post, so I'm starting to wonder if it's something that will drastically effect why you would pick up a particular rifle. The thing that puzzles me about this is because you mention using the rifle mostly for punching paper as a target rifle. Honestly, if that's the case, magazine capacity shouldn't play a big part in the decision at all, or even if the rifle has DBM. Detachable Box Magazines were really developed for snipers and for tactical competition shooters. Typically at the range, or hunting, you don't need to fire lots of rounts quickly, and it's not a big deal to stop for a minute to put some rounds in a magazine or the blind magazine. DBM's are made so that snipers and tactical match guys can quickly get more rounds in their rifle because they need to engage some guys, or are engaging targets with time constraints. Yeah it's a cool feature and everything, but don't get caught up in this and let it play a big part in your decision. Honestly, you probably won't be going through enough rounds in one sitting for it to make a huge difference in your shooting. If you think purchasing one of these rifles and scopes is expensive, you're in for a VERY rude awakening. Feeding them (ammo) is WAY more expensive, and feeding them enough ammo so that you get very good with them will end up costing you way more than the rifle and scope did. If you're just going to be shooting junk ammo most of the time, there's probably not a reason to spend so much on a rig anyway. In order to punch small groups consistently, and then starting to get at further distances, you gotta use good ammunition. Most of this easily costs over $1 a round, and lots of times over $2 a round. So even if you only shot 50 rounds a month of quality ammunition, at $2 a round you already spent $1,200 in a year. Let's say that you shoot 100 rounds a month and you were shooting some cheap stuff that only cost you $1 a round, you're still shooting $1,200 worth of ammunition a year. Honestly, if that's all you shoot out of a precision rifle a year, you got off VERY lightly.

Honestly, if you want advice on a scope, don't try to make this an "all in one" thread to get all your answers. You'll get a bunch of half ass answers about stuff people read, and not real experience, or lots of people that would see it in the optics section will miss it. If you want input on the Falcon Menace, WOTAC, or some other scopes that might fit your needs, you need to start a seperate thread for it in the optics section. It's just outside the scope of this thread, and will only take away from the discussion at hand, Savage rifles. I'll say in short, I wouldn't advise that you purchase either. If you'd like more input as to why, I'll keep an eye out for a seperate thread in the optics section. I hope that this has helped you a bit, or further muddied things, lol, and best of luck to you.

[Brudog]

Tomcat088,
I appreciate your analysis of the situation. I guess what you said is part of why I was see-sawing back and forth on each rifle. I wasn't sure of the HS Precision model was worth the extra $200 over the FCP-K because as you said it may help me shoot better. I have heard the muzzle break does reduce felt recoil on the FCP-K but I understand the effects it can have. I used to pwn a T/C 7-30 Waters pistol with a ported barrel and it felt like you got punched in the forehead on every shot.

Your discussion of ammo cost is a real consideration. So much so I have considered a change in gears and am also looking at a Model 12 BTCSS in .223. From what I have read is a fine shooting gun, has an even better trigger, is a fine looking gun and is cheaper to shoot. Plus because it is more of a target/varmint rifle it might be easier to scope. I was considering a Weaver 36x40 T-Seires if I went this route.

If I go the route of the FCP-K or the HS Precision I was looking to put together a true law enforcement or military type rifle with a fixed 10X mil/mil scope.

Once I decide on the rifle I will probably open a thread in the optics section. Thanks for your input, I appreciate your advice.

[Tomcat088]

Tomcat088,
I appreciate your analysis of the situation. I guess what you said is part of why I was see-sawing back and forth on each rifle. I wasn't sure of the HS Precision model was worth the extra $200 over the FCP-K because as you said it may help me shoot better. I have heard the muzzle break does reduce felt recoil on the FCP-K but I understand the effects it can have. I used to pwn a T/C 7-30 Waters pistol with a ported barrel and it felt like you got punched in the forehead on every shot.

Your discussion of ammo cost is a real consideration. So much so I have considered a change in gears and am also looking at a Model 12 BTCSS in .223. From what I have read is a fine shooting gun, has an even better trigger, is a fine looking gun and is cheaper to shoot. Plus because it is more of a target/varmint rifle it might be easier to scope. I was considering a Weaver 36x40 T-Seires if I went this route.

If I go the route of the FCP-K or the HS Precision I was looking to put together a true law enforcement or military type rifle with a fixed 10X mil/mil scope.

Once I decide on the rifle I will probably open a thread in the optics section. Thanks for your input, I appreciate your advice.

You're very welcome Brudog, it's not a problem at all. I'm actually really happy that you took the considerations serious. Lots of people make a budget for the rifle, and scrape every penny together to get one together. Then they don't realize how much it can cost to shoot these rifles, or very often. I'm not trying to dissuade you from doing things the way you were, or getting a .308, I just want you to know what you're getting into. The nice thing about the .223 is that even match grade ammunition, with shipping, lots of times costs just under, or right at $1 a round. Most of the time the .308 rounds are $1.25 before shipping, and after shipping end up $1.50 or more a round. If you break it down to cost by percentage, it's quite a bit cheaper to shoot .223. While this doesn't sound like a lot, on a large volume, it does make a difference. You'll get more shooting in with the .223 for the same amount of money. That practice is what makes you so much better. Just so you know, the muzzle brakes on rifles don't usually have quite the concussions that a ported pistol so close to your face can have, but they can still be pretty bad. Lots of times it's worst for the non shooters because of the way they vent.

You haven't asked, but I wanted to kind of give me my feelings on this "other direction" you might go. Honestly, I don't think it's necessarily "better" than your original direction, besides the caliber choice, it's not all that different. I'm curious as to why you decided a completely different route, instead of just looking at the rifles you were originally considering, but in .223. Honestly, I'm curious because some of the rifles that you originally looked at, or some comparable models are quite a bit cheaper than the Savage 12 BTCSS, Let me just kind of do a breakdown for you.

Basically you planned on spending $875 on the Model 12 BTCSS. It's in a laminate stock, and while it's pillar bedded, it would probably do better to have it glass/skim bedded. It would benefit any of the rifles mentioned, but because the wood stocks usually don't quite fit as well as the aluminum bedding blocks do, and they're factory installed pillars; it would benefit it more than some of the other rifles. Let's say that you can find someone to do it for $70, lots of times, it's more. So you're $945 without shipping or an FFL transfer, taxes or anything. Then you are talking about roughly a $400 scope on it, which is a nice scope. So now you're in $1345 without any scope rings, taxes, ffl transfers, or anything else. It's quite a bit of money, and you have a rifle that is nice, but I have a few qualms about it.

You end up with a 26" barreled .223. It's just a bit of overkill, and not really necessary, especially for punching paper. If you were taking it long range on varmints, you might get a bit of a benefit if you were shooting them past 350-400 yards. This is usually beyond most people's ability on small targets with a .223 in windy conditions. Honestly, it doesn't benefit because it's "more accurate", it just helps the bullet fly a bit faster, so that it delivers a bit more kinetic energy on target. Either way, the bullet would still have enough energy to kill varmints at those ranges, even from a 16" barrel. So you end up with a rifle that is excessively heavy because of the barrel length, it's harder to handle because of how long the barrel is, and it's not really cheaper than some of the other models you were looking at. Although the barrel contour might be just a little lighter, it probably won't be any easier to scope. If you meant "easier to scope" about finding something in your price range, that's not necessarily true. In that particular price range, I DO know of some scopes that can get the job done for you.

Have you considered building a tactical rifle, or as you put it a "LEO sniper rifle" in .223? The truth is that lots of LEO sniper rifles ARE built in .223. The distance that the shots are taken, and over penetration issues make it an optimum caliber choice for most of their uses. Making "true military sniper rifles" ends up costing LOTS of money. The truth is, most people have no use for one, and if you aren't shooting at longer ranges, it's just for looks and to make you feel cool. I wanted to run a few things by you and see what you think.

Have you looked at some models like the Savage 10 FP-SR? http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/p...ducts_id/70991 It DOES have the Savage accustock, but it does NOT have the DBM. It's only $620, and you end up with a heavy barreled rifle built on an accurate action. That includes free shipping, no tax, so all you'd have to pay for would be the FFL transfer. It's got a 22" barrel, which is more than enough for what you've talked about using it for. It would be easy handling, balance pretty well, even for offhand shots or easier to carry for hunting. The nice thing is that you can save some on the cost of the rifle and having to bed it, and you can put that towards a better scope, bipod, rifle case, ammunition, etc.

If you want a similar rifle that will function just as well, but has more features, you can look at the Savage 10 LE "Precision Carbine". http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/p...ducts_id/57406 Keep in mind that on that page, all the specs aren't listed. It's a 20" barrel, which is still long enough to easily get the job done, and makes for a nice and easy handling range gun and varmint rifle. This one DOES have the DBM even though it's not listed on the link I posted. If you look it up on Savage's website, you can see that it does have the detachable magazine, accustock, etc. The downside is that you may not like the digital camo stock, but like I said before, that can be changed. They're basically $700 with free shipping, no tax, so all you'd pay was the FFL transfer.

I bring up both of these rifles because they're cheaper than what you were initially looking at, but have almost the same features. They have an accustock that will work and is mechanically sound, they can have the DBM, and chambered in .223. A muzzle brake definitely won't be necessary since the .223 hardly recoils, so you don't have to worry about that as a feature, extra cost, or annoyance to others around you. The nice thing is let's say you go with the .223 and are $700 in. If we go by the budget you had earlier for the Savage 12 BTCSS, we had you in for around $1345 for just the rifle and scope, not any kind of shipping, taxes, or any other accessories. How about I show you a scope that might fit some of the requirements, bipod, accesories, and everything for the same price.

So let's assume you buy the $700 rifle, so you basically have $650 to work with in the same budget. Let's look at a mil/mil scope that will fit your needs. I'm not going to necessarily look at a FFP scope just because the Weaver T36 you were looking at earlier isn't FFP. So that means for the ranges and things you'd be doing with the rifle, you could get by with SFP. The first scope I'd mention is the Bushnell Elite 3200 10x. It's fixed 10X, mil/mil, has good clear and bright glass for the money, and will work for you. http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/950...-reticle-matte If you go with that scope, you're like $225 in with shipping and everything. So that leaves you with $425. Now we'll throw an EGW pitactinny rail on it for $40 http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/889...t-action-matte . So now you have $385 left. We're going to need some decent little rings, and we can get by with something like some Burris XTR rings, they'll run you $62 for the pair, so that leaves you with $323. http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/276...m-package-of-1 Now let's throw on a Harris bipod, 6-9" notch leg swivel model for $99, and you can add the pod lock on for $15. http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/155...t-6-to-9-black . We'll figure it podlock and all, so that leaves you with $209. Now you can't have a rifle without a case, so let's get you a "tactical" dragbag for it, to protect it and look cool. You can use midway's dragbag, which will get you by for $65 http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/939...rifle-gun-case . So that's going to leave you with $144. You also can't forget a legit sling that you can use the way they're intended to be used (help shooting). We'll get you a nice leather one that'll get you by for $30 http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/102...-sling-leather . So that leaves you with $114, and I guess we better take off a bit more for shipping all that other stuff, so let's take off $35 more for all that; leaving you with $79.

Ok, so basically what we just did was built you a "tactical sniper rifle", the complete package. You got a $700 rifle that has a solid usable stock, rings, picatinny rail, scope, great bipod, sling, dragbag, etc. I mean I seriously just put you together a complete usable rig with some top components, and some other decent usable glass that will hold up for just the budget of your other rifle and the scope; that didn't include anything else in that setup. At the end you had enough money to cover the FFL transfer, a nice eagle cheekpad if you wanted to toss one on the stock, or a bit more money on the scope for something else. Obviously you could do without some things and get better other things. You're left with enough money to put something like a Karsten adjustable cheekpiece on it, if you wanted, or even enough to maybe have someone bed the rifle in the stock for you, and easily enough to do it yourself. I hope you don't take this as me telling you how to spent your money. What I'm trying to do is show you that you can put together an entire rig for the kind of money that you're already looking at. It won't be the prettiest thing, and it might not look as "tactical" as some people's rifle. It will be a legit, real deal, get the job done rig; that in and of itself is "tactical". You can always change things out or upgrade later, that's what most of us do with scopes. There are other scopes if you're interested in going this route. We can always discuss that later if you are interested in doing something similar to this. I personally think it's a much more usable and practical rig than your "other route". Let me know what you think.

[harold63]

The nice thing about the .223 is that even match grade ammunition, with shipping, lots of times costs just under, or right at $1 a round.

at those ranges, even from a 16" barrel.

It is easy to shoot a hundred rounds in a day if you are precision shooting. A precision rifle deserves precision ammo, and if you don't reload/hand load, the very best .223 ammo is around $1.40 per round, before tax and shipping, and a little cheaper if you buy bulk (see ASYM ammo website).

Just a normal round of .223 is still pushing around 1400 FPS at 500yds. That will kill a varmint with no problem.