Missouri Bullets "Hardness Optimized"

[LeadHead]

I recent had a bad experience that went even worse when the company would not make good on a defective shipment of bullets. The following are pictures of my problem with descriptions of what to be looking for. This particular caster is dangerous; he has no idea how to cast and mixes random scrap into his melting pots to extend his material and his people were witnessed spooning off the tin through their web cam as it rose to the top and throwing it on the floor since it was a different color, I suppose, and they thought it was some contamination. This ends up casting almost pure lead bullets eventually which is about how the ones I got behave. He claims he buys “Certified Lead” but when I called his supplier, they do not certify lead for bullet casting. It’s very common among the Gun Forums to read threads from people complaining about extreme leading with Missouri Bullets, I filed a BBB complaint http://www.bbb.org/kansas-city/busin...le-mo-99158868 with no resolution and will be sending samples to the Federal Trade Commission since at least his advertising is false, or at least the bullets I got are dangerous.

I was going to use these bullets for falling steel shooting and while developing a load for them only loaded 10 or 15 to check speed, recoil and accuracy then loaded 1,,500 of them after load development, of course that’s when the soft lead problem showed up best

Since these pictures aren’t importing very large, I’m including the URL to WebShots so you can view full size pictures. … http://news.webshots.com/album/581550648wpsOem Click on the photo then click on it again till you blow it up as big as it will get; you’ll see lots of detail.



"Hardness Optimized" that's the claim to fame of the Missouri Bullet Company. I want to share my recent experience with their "hardness".

As you look through the pictures of the problems I had, remember that these bullets were loaded on 9MM brass with a Lee 4 die set on a Hornady Lock-N-Load progressive press. In the seating die I did a minimum taper crimp because I followed up that small crimp with their Factory Crimp Die, which I have had excellent results with.

What you will witness in the pictures are bullets sold and labeled as 18 Brinell, "Hardness Optimized" bullets that were so soft that the minimal crimp as the bullet was seated dammed up lead in front of the shell causing the ammunition to eventually jam up every gun I tried to fire them through. As well, these bullets leaded the barrel so much that in less than 100 shots, the barrel no longer showed that it had rifling to the eye; pretty dangerous shooting and why I was forced to disassemble about 1,000 of them. You will also witness how the collet puller crushed the bullets so as to mold the lead to conform with the shape of the collet including the 4 slits that allow the collet to compress. Many of them were like trying to draw soft butter out of a shell.

It's no surprise the bullet weights varied considerably as the hardness changed from lack of fluxing the melting pot making for random alloy drops into molds.




The bullet standing upright toward the front of the pile is an excellent view of the lead ridge left by seating in a crimp die which caused the problem jamming and not fitting in the chamber since the bullet was too wide to fit with the excess lead bunched up in front of the shell.




Some so soft they crushed like soft butter under the squeeze of the collet puller and had to be grabbed by vice grip pliers to pull the bullet as the collet couldn’t grab the soft lead.




Showing some of the fragments of lead from the scraping of lead from the bullet as it was seated; these fragments fell into the works of every gun we tried to get the ammunition to work in. (The little call out says "Hey a good one!!)




Hey, Look at that!! A good one in front, contrasted with the ones in the background showing how soft the lead was that every detail of the collet imprinted in the soft lead.




…another collet impression in a soft bullet.




Another great shot of the dammed up lead.




Perhaps some of the extreme barrel leading problem is the narrow lube ring. This shows a competitors 115 grain bullet with a lube ring twice the size and Missouri Bullet’s.

[Tim Ault]

So what hardness reading did you get on these bullets? IMO as a bullet caster and shooter for several calibers including rifle calibers. Leading is caused more by poor bullet fit and the wrong (too hard and waxy) lube that commercial casters use than by the alloy being too soft. Not saying that those bullets you have pictured are good ,I agree that at 18bhn when tapper crimped they shouldnt deform like that. Also your comment on them skimming off the dross is a little off. Yes that might take some of the tin out of the alloy mix. But tin does very little to harden the alloy. That is why they add in antimony and it wont separate from the lead at those temps .Tin will make the alloy "tougher" ie: more malleable not so much harder.

[LeadHead]

Also your comment on them skimming off the dross is a little off. Yes that might take some of the tin out of the alloy mix. But tin does very little to harden the alloy. That is why they add in antimony and it wont separate from the lead at those temps .Tin will make the alloy "tougher" ie: more malleable not so much harder.

Tin is the key ingredient to hardness; you're way off.

I'm not willing to argue with anyone about any element of this thread; if this is the kind of bullets you're looking for, you now know where to buy them. This thread along with the pictures it totally self explanatory. Leading is either a poorly rifled barrel, soft lead or both. Since this problem was consistent with a half dozen guns, it's not the gun and I was firing it through a lapped barrel.

[DeadHead]

I've used thousands and thousands of Missouri Bullet Co. cast bullets of various bullet types and weights in various 9mm (.356) and 38 Special/ 357 Mag (.358) loads. I've never had an issue with the quality or condition of the product, nor have I had any excesive leading when I loaded from mild to warmer load levels. I have always thought that they have a quality product and have recommended them to others before. Shipping was always fast and they were very polite and curteous on the phone. Never had even the smallest issue. Other posters on PAFOA will agree with this.

I think I would have noticed that I had an issue with the deformation during crimping stages before I loaded up over a thousand of them. I also would have checked out more than ten or fifteen rounds during my "load development." You must have seen ok results with your "test" loads to crank out 1,500 of them unchecked.

I can see why they won't give you a refund on your bullets. You loaded and pulled them all. They are nothing but scrap lead now. I think things would have been a lot different if you would have called them with the issue after the initial few loadings.

[LeadHead]

I can see why they won't give you a refund on your bullets. You loaded and pulled them all. They are nothing but scrap lead now. I think things would have been a lot different if you would have called them with the issue after the initial few loadings.

As much as his service to customers it touted by him, he said he wouldn't refund me for the defective bullets because it took longer than his 10 days to determine they were defective. That doesn't fly in any state; defective is defective.

10 rounds did not lead the barrel to the obliteration of the rifling and the few times I had to force the slide forward to get them to chamber didn't register. But that doesn't change what happened to me.

Buy the way my OP is not about anybody who didn't have trouble with bullets, this is about what is pictured.

[Tim Ault]

Tin is the key ingredient to hardness; you're way off.

Leading is either a poorly rifled barrel, soft lead or both. Since this problem was consistent with a half dozen guns, it's not the gun and I was firing it through a lapped barrel.

First off Read this on Tin and what exactly it does in an alloy for casting . http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletAlloy.htm#tin

And just for shits and giggles take a mic and see what dia. the lower portion of those bullets you pulled are. I bet under .356

[cephas]

One factor that may of been a cause in leading is the use of the Lee factory crimp die. Have been advised to check diameter of cast bullets before and after using it. Have seen reports of casts being sized down from it. Have not bought commercial cast for quite awhile, but always dealt with Penn bullets and was satisfied. Also think the effect of tin is marginal in hardness factor, more for fill out. Some interesting reading: http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletAlloy.htm

(See Tim pointed to the same folks before I posted)

[LeadHead]

First off Read this on Tin and what exactly it does in an alloy for casting . http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletAlloy.htm#tin

And just for shits and giggles take a mic and see what dia. the lower portion of those bullets you pulled are. I bet under .356

Is your argument that those are good bullets pictured? Because if it is they are for sale.

Your .356 dia is another falsehood; go back and see if the facts of the problem are consistent with undersized bullets and if they are undersized then the vendor is a double whammy selling defective bullets. You're missing the whole point jumping on me.

If you think bullets that conform to the shape of a collet puller like they were Play-Dough is a good thing then like I said, they're for sale because the caster wont make good on them.

[LeadHead]

One factor that may of been a cause in leading is the use of the Lee factory crimp die.

You're not serious are you?

[imashooter2]

Did you test Brinell hardness yourself? If so, what was the number?