good 380 defensive round

**scoutjoe** · January 16th, 2008, 10:16 PM

I carry Mag-Safe ammo in my Bersa the "defender" load. They punched cleanly through a one gallon jug and the jacket was stuck in the rear of the 2nd jug.

It isn't scientific. I can't remember the hollow points I picked up for the 2nd mag but they are alternating with Mag-tech FMJ. I figure if I'm down to that mag though I'm in trouble either way.

**Leeload45** · January 22nd, 2008, 03:38 AM

I carry 90 grn Hydrashoks in my Sig 232. They are very accurate in this gun and pleasant to shoot. That being said, in my own informal test, they penetrated a good 6 inches of wet phone book and expanded perfectly. I usually carry a 5 inch .45 but on the occasions I carry the 232, I do not feel underarmed.

**MarcS** · January 22nd, 2008, 03:50 AM

Originally Posted by Hawk

I agree, but I don't wholly agree with the 12" number for minimum required penetration for a self defense round for civilians. I'm 6' 2" and 250 lbs with a 45 inch chest. Front to back at my chest is no more than 12" on me. Heart and lungs an other organs are no more than half that. Granted there is muscle and bone possibly to pass though to get there. The FBI protocol was figuring a side shot through the arm and into the chest like what happened to the BG in the famous Miami FBI shoot out. I can see where the 12" would come into play if the shot had to go through the arm first, but if it didn't 6-8" would still hit vital organs on someone my size if shot from the side.
If someone is shooting at you or attacking you (as a civilian) are they presenting their chest, or do they have their arms at their sides and charging at you sideways? I guess if you want to make sure you can shoot through their arms and still hit vital organs, then 10-12" would be the required penetration to make it to the center of their torso.

Hawk,

Shots through the arms are incredibly common, both from the side and from the front. Take a fighting stance or a shooting stance, how much arm covers your A-zone?

12" is the minimum, there's good reasons for it and those reasons were developed by smart people.

**MarcS** · January 22nd, 2008, 04:01 AM

Originally Posted by scoutjoe

I carry Mag-Safe ammo in my Bersa the "defender" load. They punched cleanly through a one gallon jug and the jacket was stuck in the rear of the 2nd jug.

It isn't scientific. I can't remember the hollow points I picked up for the 2nd mag but they are alternating with Mag-tech FMJ. I figure if I'm down to that mag though I'm in trouble either way.

You realize, that correlates to about 3.5" of penetration in gelatin....good luck making it through the ribcage.

**Hawk** · January 22nd, 2008, 10:08 AM

Originally Posted by MarcS

Shots through the arms are incredibly common, both from the side and from the front.

Can you support this statement with any documentation with regards to civilian encounters?

Originally Posted by MarcS

Take a fighting stance or a shooting stance, how much arm covers your A-zone?

Am I typically going to engage (as a civilian) some BG who will take a proper stance?

Originally Posted by MarcS

12" is the minimum, there's good reasons for it and those reasons were developed by smart people.

Which people are you referring to the FBI? I'm guessing further studies by other groups confirmed the FBI's results using the Ballistic Gelatin test once more, which many experts believe is not a true representation of human construction.

Hawk,

**spratman** · March 21st, 2009, 12:58 PM

Well, I just purchased a box of Pow r Ball. Didn't know they were made by corbon though. I've got a Makarov .380 and have carried that for awhile with hydrashoks. I shoot CorBon +P's in my H&K .45, flying ashtrays...

Also, I thought the best penetration test was conducted on goats. Maybe PETA shut that down, but that was supposed to be solid tests, rather than gelatin blocks.

Anyway, I've got a box of FMJ's to boot. They just need to be hotter. Looks like the Pow R Ball is hopped up pretty good.