Looking for some help to improve my shooting

[Huskyoverlord]

your "flinch" to many rounds down range or not enough? It happens to new and experinced shooters , do own a .22 cal pistol? If not buy one that can help you're flinching problem! Go from .22lr to centerfire and watch yourself improve!

[wwhite72082]

That looks somewhat better but it is really hard to see without being there watching. The problem can be that even though you may be gripping the gun right at first as each round is fired you could be 'adjusting' your grip and not even knowing it. I had that problem and I also let my trigger finger slide deeper over the trigger while shooting. As I became aware of it I learned to stop and and mentally check where my hand was at and where my finger was on the trigger ... once I got through that it helped immensely.

That is something that I've noticed in the past. I would wiggle the fingers on my support hand after each shot (great thing about having the video). I can only assume I was resetting my grip, without realizing it, after getting movement during recoil.

[Shawn.L]

Do you think this is something that I can work on with dry-fire practice? I know that I can work on breaking the shot and resetting the trigger but will not having the recoil cause problems when I hit the range and try it with live fire?

Can you recommend any classes in the Harrisburg Area (or even better, farther east)?

Thanks for all the feedback

Theres good stuff out that way, check out the site I linked you too before, also Sayoc Tactical Group holds courses near Pocono, and Insights is out that way too. Its a bit late in the year, but if you save up now larry Vickers will be back over this way next year.

To work on it dry is the problem with no recoil. You can hold the trigger to the rear and work the slide with your other hand and feel the trigger press your finger back forward as the slide returns, but your not going to get too much out of that.

Try no target and just drop rounds into the berm, watch the sights, and try to allow the gun to reset during recoil so you are prepped for the next shot as the sights come back down.

With a partner you can have them put one hand on your shoulder and cycle the gun for you as you dry fire, increase the pace as you go.

[wwhite72082]

your "flinch" to many rounds down range or not enough? It happens to new and experinced shooters , do own a .22 cal pistol? If not buy one that can help you're flinching problem! Go from .22lr to centerfire and watch yourself improve!

It seems to be completely random and doesn't happen very often (at least that I've noticed). I'll be shooting fine and then out of the blue I'll flinch. After the flinch, I have one of the duh moments and ask myself "Why did I just do that?"


I have a .22 (Beretta Neos) that is a lot of fun to shoot but it doesn't handle like my M&P. I saw recently that Smith & Wesson has a .22 M&P that should be hitting the market soon. I'd like to get one so that I have a .22 that matches my 9mm.

[dandito]

your "flinch" to many rounds down range or not enough? It happens to new and experinced shooters , do own a .22 cal pistol? If not buy one that can help you're flinching problem! Go from .22lr to centerfire and watch yourself improve!

i agree. i bought a ruger mark II a few months back it definitely improved my shooting with my 9mm.

[spblademaker]

Reload fast and high as soon as the gun is empty. Keep your target in your line of sight during a reload. I know that the wolfman "would have gotten away with it if it wasn't for those meddling kids and their dog", but real bad-guys move, as should you.

[tacticalreload]

After watching the video, I'd recommend a few things (some of which have already been said).

Your stance isn't terrible compared to what a lot of folks are doing when "new". (I don't know how much experience you have so don't be offending if I refer to you as "new". I see you've been a member for a while, and you don't shoot like a total noob.) However, you sort of have the opposite problem from most people. The average new shooter likes to lean back with the upper body because it does two things... first it makes them feel like their face is farther away from the muzzle (which is obviously not really true) and secondly it allows them to clamp the upper part of the arms against their upper body (think of closing off their armpits). This makes them feel like they are holding their arms more still, which they kind of are. However, this stance is not even remotely stable with recoil. You seem to have discovered this. However, when you're in an exaggerated forward lean like you were at times in the video, you're also not very stable. It might feel good because you're leaning against recoil, but your center of gravity is too far forward.

Bend your knees a little more. Bend your arms a little more. It's okay to have your weak side foot forward or even... But if even means that you're not stable, then move the left for a little forward... and if it's too far forward, you're going to have difficulty transitioning to targets on your left without resetting. That being said, don't "blade" the upper body too much. (It looks like you're fairly square, which is good.)

The grip is going to depend on your anatomy a little. Experiment a little. Try thumb over thumb if high thumbs doesn't work. Try moving the support hand back a little... if there is a gap between your hands or between your palm and the grip, then it's not going to be very stable.

Much like the stance, there are some that are obviously "not right" but there isn't a single "right" way to do it. Plenty of people will tell you that you NEED to do it a certain way, but if you look at top shooters you'll see that there are nearly as many grips and stances as there are people using them.

Think of it this way... it's like learning to type. The "hunt-and-peck" is obviously not the "right" way to type. You can get pretty darn good at hunt-and-peck typing, but you'll never been as fast as someone who can really type well. However, if you learn how to type properly, it doesn't matter so much if you rest your palms or hover or if you always hit the space bar with your right thumb or sometimes use your left, etc.

Trigger control is something that you really need to concentrate on at first. It's way too easy to be sloppy when you're new and there is so much going on. I also think you should slow down. Shooting fast is cool, but it's not a good idea when you're working on fundamentals. Squeeze slow, look for a surprise break, and concentrate on what you're doing AFTER the shot breaks. Hold the trigger back and then consciously release it slowly until you feel it reset. This isn't as distinct with the M&P as it is with the Glock, but it's similar. Once it resets, do not release it any farther. Then align your sights and slowly squeeze again. Keep repeating this until your mag is empty (but if you start to feel your hand getting shaky or your concentration waning, put the pistol down and rest).

Dryfire practice is a huge help to get the feel of the trigger (both breaking and reseting). However, when you have a striker-fired gun, it's a PITA to rack the slide over and over again. The last thing you want to get stuck in your head at this stage when you actually get to the range is to break your grip between every shot like you do when you're dryfiring.

A .22 is a great addition to everyone's collection, and it is a fantastic way to work on overcoming a flinch. However, if you're problem isn't with flinching, you're going to want to buy a .22 that most closely matches the trigger and grip of your primary pistol. Otherwise, you'll just become very good at shooting your .22 but not necessarily as good as with your big boy gun. Fortunately, S&W makes an M&P in .22 and there are aftermarket top-end conversion kits. That would really help you a lot.

I think the suggestion of moving to a smaller target is a pretty good one... as long as the target is bigger than your average group size. It'll force you to slow down.

Until you're happy with your stance and grip and trigger control, I would skip the more "tactical" stuff like fast mag changes or failure drills. Also don't move the target back any farther (if you're at 10 yards). If anything, move it closer -- especially if you're not happy with your groups. While a smaller target will happy you focus on your sights and trigger control, if you're shooting at something too small or too far away in the beginning, you're going to become overly focused on perfection, which can be counter-productive (if that makes any sense).

As for instruction, the NRA basic pistol class is good for someone new to shooting. I'm sure it helped you. However, the personal protection class is not really going to focus on your shooting specifically. I'm certified to teach both of these classes and the personal protection classes are more focused on the legalities and tactical aspects of using your firearm for defense. While you'll obviously be shooting, they aren't going to focus on helping you shoot better necessarily. That being said, they are worthwhile.

Also, while you will benefit from almost any class that you take (as long as you're not taught anything incorrect), it's not necessary to take a high dollar class with a "big name" instructor at this stage. A lot of these classes are filled with people of all skill levels and the instructor-to-student ratio is often not very favorable. What you DO need is someone who can give you good and careful attention and pay attention to helping YOU improve (instead of helping two dozen other people at the same time). Otherwise, you're just waiting your turn and throwing a bunch of lead (and money) downrange while other people are getting their instruction in the meantime.

Feel free to PM me if you want and have more questions. I certainly don't claim to be a pistol god, but I will try to help you in any way I can.

[wwhite72082]

After watching the video, I'd recommend a few things (some of which have already been said).

Your stance isn't terrible compared to what a lot of folks are doing when "new". (I don't know how much experience you have so don't be offending if I refer to you as "new". I see you've been a member for a while, and you don't shoot like a total noob.) However, you sort of have the opposite problem from most people. The average new shooter likes to lean back with the upper body because it does two things... first it makes them feel like their face is farther away from the muzzle (which is obviously not really true) and secondly it allows them to clamp the upper part of the arms against their upper body (think of closing off their armpits). This makes them feel like they are holding their arms more still, which they kind of are. However, this stance is not even remotely stable with recoil. You seem to have discovered this. However, when you're in an exaggerated forward lean like you were at times in the video, you're also not very stable. It might feel good because you're leaning against recoil, but your center of gravity is too far forward.

Bend your knees a little more. Bend your arms a little more. It's okay to have your weak side foot forward or even... But if even means that you're not stable, then move the left for a little forward... and if it's too far forward, you're going to have difficulty transitioning to targets on your left without resetting. That being said, don't "blade" the upper body too much. (It looks like you're fairly square, which is good.)

The grip is going to depend on your anatomy a little. Experiment a little. Try thumb over thumb if high thumbs doesn't work. Try moving the support hand back a little... if there is a gap between your hands or between your palm and the grip, then it's not going to be very stable.

Much like the stance, there are some that are obviously "not right" but there isn't a single "right" way to do it. Plenty of people will tell you that you NEED to do it a certain way, but if you look at top shooters you'll see that there are nearly as many grips and stances as there are people using them.

Think of it this way... it's like learning to type. The "hunt-and-peck" is obviously not the "right" way to type. You can get pretty darn good at hunt-and-peck typing, but you'll never been as fast as someone who can really type well. However, if you learn how to type properly, it doesn't matter so much if you rest your palms or hover or if you always hit the space bar with your right thumb or sometimes use your left, etc.

Trigger control is something that you really need to concentrate on at first. It's way too easy to be sloppy when you're new and there is so much going on. I also think you should slow down. Shooting fast is cool, but it's not a good idea when you're working on fundamentals. Squeeze slow, look for a surprise break, and concentrate on what you're doing AFTER the shot breaks. Hold the trigger back and then consciously release it slowly until you feel it reset. This isn't as distinct with the M&P as it is with the Glock, but it's similar. Once it resets, do not release it any farther. Then align your sights and slowly squeeze again. Keep repeating this until your mag is empty (but if you start to feel your hand getting shaky or your concentration waning, put the pistol down and rest).

Dryfire practice is a huge help to get the feel of the trigger (both breaking and reseting). However, when you have a striker-fired gun, it's a PITA to rack the slide over and over again. The last thing you want to get stuck in your head at this stage when you actually get to the range is to break your grip between every shot like you do when you're dryfiring.

A .22 is a great addition to everyone's collection, and it is a fantastic way to work on overcoming a flinch. However, if you're problem isn't with flinching, you're going to want to buy a .22 that most closely matches the trigger and grip of your primary pistol. Otherwise, you'll just become very good at shooting your .22 but not necessarily as good as with your big boy gun. Fortunately, S&W makes an M&P in .22 and there are aftermarket top-end conversion kits. That would really help you a lot.

I think the suggestion of moving to a smaller target is a pretty good one... as long as the target is bigger than your average group size. It'll force you to slow down.

Until you're happy with your stance and grip and trigger control, I would skip the more "tactical" stuff like fast mag changes or failure drills. Also don't move the target back any farther (if you're at 10 yards). If anything, move it closer -- especially if you're not happy with your groups. While a smaller target will happy you focus on your sights and trigger control, if you're shooting at something too small or too far away in the beginning, you're going to become overly focused on perfection, which can be counter-productive (if that makes any sense).

As for instruction, the NRA basic pistol class is good for someone new to shooting. I'm sure it helped you. However, the personal protection class is not really going to focus on your shooting specifically. I'm certified to teach both of these classes and the personal protection classes are more focused on the legalities and tactical aspects of using your firearm for defense. While you'll obviously be shooting, they aren't going to focus on helping you shoot better necessarily. That being said, they are worthwhile.

Also, while you will benefit from almost any class that you take (as long as you're not taught anything incorrect), it's not necessary to take a high dollar class with a "big name" instructor at this stage. A lot of these classes are filled with people of all skill levels and the instructor-to-student ratio is often not very favorable. What you DO need is someone who can give you good and careful attention and pay attention to helping YOU improve (instead of helping two dozen other people at the same time). Otherwise, you're just waiting your turn and throwing a bunch of lead (and money) downrange while other people are getting their instruction in the meantime.

Feel free to PM me if you want and have more questions. I certainly don't claim to be a pistol god, but I will try to help you in any way I can.

I've been shooting for a couple of years. Up until recently I have been content with shooting from a static location and putting holes in an 8" target at 10 yards. I've gotten to the point now where I want to shoot tighter groups and be a well rounded shooter.

When I started watching video of myself shooting, the first thing to catch my attention was how I was leaning back. When the gun fired, I could see the recoil pushing me back on my heals. To correct that, I leaned forward aggressively. As you mentioned, it feels good with recoil but it isn't working as I intended. I never thought about transitioning to a target on the left, having my foot far forward (like it is) would force me to turn and reset.

After reading several replies yesterday, I got out my M&P and did a little dry firing. It really is a pain to try and simulate time at the range. I would rack the slide and slowly press the trigger until it broke. With the trigger still depressed, I would use my support hand to rack the slide then re-grip the gun and get it back on target. From there I would slowly let out the trigger until it reset, at which point I would start the process all over again by slowly pressing the trigger. After about twenty repetitions I could feel my arms getting wobbly but I walked away feeling like it was worthwhile.

A couple of weeks ago I saw a post from Smith & Wesson on Facebook about the M&P .22 and immediately started looking into it. From what I've seen, I definitely want one as a training aid. It looks like it is the same weight (although the balance isn't the same as the slide is not stainless steel like the larger calibers) but it is hammer fired. I don't know what that will do to the way the trigger behaves or if it will be close enough to the M&P that I can use it to supplement my shooting.

The NRA Basic Pistol Safety class was great and certainly got the ball rolling. I wasn't sure what to expect from the personal protection class. After reading what you had to say about it, I definitely want to take it at some point but I'm going to look more at something geared towards tuning my shooting.

I was a little concerned about posting the video and asking for help. While there is a laundry list of things I need to work on, all of the feedback has been constructive. It makes me want to head over to the range again this morning.....

Thank for all the info

[NinjaofTashy]

Just keep shooting, and continue to practice!

[wwhite72082]

After all of the feedback I received, I was pretty eager to get to the range and do some more shooting. I hit the range bright and early and put fifty rounds through my gun. Just like last time, I setup my camera to record the session.

What I did this time:

I placed mt Flip Camera on my strong side so that my trigger finger was in view. It is hard to see, even in full screen, but if you listen closely you can hear the trigger reset as I slowly eased off after each shot. Resetting the trigger this way took concentration but I made sure to do it after each shot, even when the slide was locked back due to an empty magazine.

I changed my grip as per suggestions here. I rotated my hand counter-clockwise and slid it back on the grip. This gave me more contact and seemed to help with muzzle flip.

My stance drew the most attention, so I ditched the superman position and stood in a more natural position. My knees were bent slightly, weight on my toes (enough that you could slip a dime under my heel). I brought my head up, which in turn brought the gun up higher. I bent my elbows a bit to bring the pistol closer to my face. I have to play around with this a bit as I have found that if my arms are not far enough forward (elbows not locked but getting close) I get a lot of movement out of the gun as I line up the sights.

I kept the pad of my finger on the face of the trigger, using only the first two knuckles to break the shot (keeping the third knuckle static so that it wouldn't pull the shots left as per the Todd Jarret video posted earlier).

What I learned:

So what did this practice session teach me? I learned that a lot of concentration goes into consistently applying the fundamentals. My groups yesterday were, for the most part, not even tight enough to be considered a group at all. After making the changes, I was seeing consistency in my shooting (granted, I wasn't hitting the small white ring that I was aiming at, but my shots were becoming consistent and forming some sort of a group rather than a cluster).

The last string of fire is probably the poorest of the bunch. Taking my time with all of the steps put a strain on my arms, which had my sights drifting a bit. Rather than cracking open another box of ammo, I packed it up for the day.

For my next session:

During my next trip I'm going to setup 5-7 yards from my target. While 10 yards is a challenge, seeing smaller groups from a shorter distance (I also plan to use an index card or a smaller bullseye target) will be a confidence booster. I'll slow-fire until I'm happy with my groups then move to firing from the ready position. Once I'm comfortable with those groups I'll step out to 10 yards and repeat the process.

I'm not sure when I should be shooting in terms of breathing. Having my lungs full of air seems to make my shoulders and chest feel more stable. Shooting after I exhale is more comfortable but I feel like there is more recoil.

Even though I didn't shoot after a reload, I'm going to practice reloading and manipulating the slide much higher than I did in the video. I'm going to practice in front of a mirror so that I force myself to keep my head up and my eyes forward (I would have to in order to see myself in the mirror).

I'm also going to practice dry-fire, especially with resetting the trigger. I want to get to the point where I can reset the trigger without having to think about it so much. I've come to the conclusion that developing that muscle memory is every bit as important as a smooth trigger pull.

My Goals:

• Slow Fire - Turn my basketball sized groups into softball sized groups
• Slow Fire - Turn my then softball sized groups into baseball sized groups
• Slow Fire - Turn my then baseball sized groups into golf ball sized groups

While my targets may not be all that impressive, I think I made a huge step forward. While every range trip won't yield such large improvements, I'm going to baby-step my way to becoming a well rounded shooter.

Thanks for all of the feedback so far. I had a lot of fun implementing the suggestions in this thread and left the range with grin on my face.