Target World (Chalfont) - bad info (IMO) and interesting insurance situation

[johnnycarbine]

First off, let me say that I have no axe to grind with Target World. I've been shooting there for a long time (even before I owned a gun I would go and rent various ones). I know there are many knowledgeable employees, but this one guy worried me.

To begin on an ancillary note, he was wearing sandals (of some open-toed variety). I'll admit I'm not a range safety specialist, but are open toes really advisable when you may need to go out on the range where hot brass will be flying?

So I walk into the range for a day with one of my .22 rifles. This gentleman is behind the counter talking to a customer who is discussing getting his LTCF before buying a firearm, when I came up to the counter to shoot and started overhearing the conversation. The counter guy is telling the customer that when he gets his LTCF, he *has to* carry concealed, and that if he even prints conspicuously, he might receive a lot of unwanted attention (harassment) from LEOs. He goes on to tell the customer that he'll want to consider this when he considers the size of his firearm(s). I didn't want to be "that guy" that just injects himself into a conversation to argue with someone, so the best I could come up with was to recommend to the customer that he do some reading on the internet to learn more comprehensive information on PA gun/carry laws (I mentioned PAFOA and PAOC). I am planning to call and ask them if I can bring in a stack of the PAOC flyers for customers (and maybe that guy will read them as well).

The other event I am going to try to present as objectively as possible, as I can see valid points on both side of the coin. Two guys came into the range; one guy who seems like he's a more seasoned shooter, and a man who had just purchased his first handgun (possibly his first gun) at the shop upstairs. The gun was a 9mm, but I'm unsure of make/model. The range officer asked the buyer if he had shot before, to which he replied that he had shot rifles before, but not handguns. The range officer then told him that he had to start on a .22 for insurance reasons. The buyer's friend (the seemingly more seasoned shooter) was upset by this statement, and said that he hadn't brought any of his 22s. The RO said that they had a 22 revolver that could be rented. The friend sounded angry at this statement, saying something to the effect of "so he just spent 500 and some dollars upstairs, and now you want another $20 so he can shoot a 22 that he doesn't want to shoot". The conversation turned to when the buyer could "move up" from the 22 rental to the gun he had just purchased, and the RO explained that the determination was made by the ROs based on the control, safety, accuracy etc. shown by the shooter. Around this time, the buyer said that he guessed he would go to another range, and the friend quickly took his ID and the range paperwork back from the RO. The RO said that he needed the paperwork to void it, and the friend ripped it up and said basically "there, it's voided." The RO said "you don't need to give me attitude", and the friend said that it wasn't attitude, but that the RO didn't need his information because he didn't and wasn't going to shoot on that range.

So what do you all think? Someone can go upstairs and buy whatever first handgun they want, and to the best of my knowledge, it's never mentioned upstairs that you'll have to effectively qualify with a smaller gun (that you'll have to rent) before you'll be allowed to shoot it. On the other hand, of course it's ultimately the RO's decision what is and isn't okay, based on his knowledge of the facility rules, insurance provisions, knowledge of the shooter's skills/experience. But do you feel like they might end up losing a significant amount of business due to these rules? Their website does not mention anything that I can find regarding this policy.

[comsubin61]

I used to shoot there a few years ago, I stopped going in there because of those type of incidents. They need to revisit their training package and ensure that everyone is on the same page and enforce what ever it is they decide to make a rule, uniformely and not by whatever day or time or whim it is. I have similar incident, where I have seen or happen to me, where some ridiculus rule, that some moron pulled out of the hat that day, was enforced just based on his opinion. I was even told one time that to purchase a gun I needed a permit, whatever that was. I walked out and never looked back. However I must say that I find that sort of attitude in several gun shops I visited, especialy the type of shop that tends to be a little larger then the mom and pop where they might have more employees that they really need. I say forget them and move on to a better shop where your money and opinions are appreciate and where opinions are not facts or "LAW'S".

[c45man]

I never been to target world, but their bad reputation precedes them.
The old insurance regulation crap is the usual scapegoat for making up rules as they go along. No insurance underwriter is going to write a policy that requires training on a 22 cal. first before "stepping up". There is enough to consider when writing policies without going into language regarding calibers and outside ammo.

[glocke12]

I was there a couple of years ago and was asked to draw a sight picture before on a piece of paper before I could shoot...

To be honest, I can't really blame them for being overly careful, it is their business and they can run it as they see fit. If people do not like it they can go elsewhere (like I have).

In regards to the OP and the .22 rental I can see their point, but they should have let the guy use it for free since he just bought his gun.

FWIW whenever I let my friends who have never shot before shoot a handgun, I start them out in my 22 pistols.

[c45man]

I was there a couple of years ago and was asked to draw a sight picture before on a piece of paper before I could shoot...

To be honest, I can't really blame them for being overly careful, it is their business and they can run it as they see fit. If people do not like it they can go elsewhere (like I have).

In regards to the OP and the .22 rental I can see their point, but they should have let the guy use it for free since he just bought his gun.

FWIW whenever I let my friends who have never shot before shoot a handgun, I start them out in my 22 pistols.

Your correct about seeing their point. It is a privately owned range, they could make any policies they want. That being said, they should be honest enough to state their policy without going into the insurance policy excuse.

[bigdawgbeav]

I'm guessing that since the suicide there in 2007, they are trying to be cautious. Understandable.

[Plunkit]

No longer the case. I never shot a .22 there. Only larger calibers.

[Rosco the Iroc]

No longer the case. I never shot a .22 there. Only larger calibers.

way to update an 8yo thread no one read anymore

[mauser]

way to update an 8yo thread no one read anymore

So what's wrong with revisiting an old thread? Apparently someone did read it recently, that's what made it active again. I've sent many people to PAFOA for advice and information and many of them told me that they won't be going back because of the arrogance they encountered immediately. I'll admit that I haven't been a regular here because that type of arrogance isn't appealing to me.
Who cares how old the thread is? If it is interesting to someone and they want to chime in on it what's the B.F.D.?
If you've seen it and have no interest in it you can just scroll right past it and not feel obligated to make any comment on it at all. This forum is for anyone and everyone, it's not just to suit the whims of a few members who want to feel like they have some sort of control over others.

[icp4life162005]

So what's wrong with revisiting an old thread? Apparently someone did read it recently, that's what made it active again. I've sent many people to PAFOA for advice and information and many of them told me that they won't be going back because of the arrogance they encountered immediately. I'll admit that I haven't been a regular here because that type of arrogance isn't appealing to me.
Who cares how old the thread is? If it is interesting to someone and they want to chime in on it what's the B.F.D.?
If you've seen it and have no interest in it you can just scroll right past it and not feel obligated to make any comment on it at all. This forum is for anyone and everyone, it's not just to suit the whims of a few members who want to feel like they have some sort of control over others.

+1