How do you feel ?

[larrymeyer]

I'll start and take the arrows. These gentleman at Gitmo and even in Iraq and Afghanistan don't care about torture they behead reporters and other. They torture US servicemen captured by them or Iraqis in the police force or who work with us. We are not fighting a country but individuals who are not US citizens why would we want to extend our Constitute or the Geneva Conventional coverage to them ? If using torture saves one US soldiers life then it tough that an interviewer burned a Qur'an or flushed it down a john. I can see using Waterboarding or any other techniques to gain information !!!


http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080113/...VNB_EnbFQE1vAI

Waterboarding would be torture to me: U.S. spy chief
By Deborah Zabarenko 1 hour, 49 minutes ago

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. intelligence chief Mike McConnell said in a magazine interview that waterboarding would be torture if it was used against him personally, but stopped short of condemning the controversial interrogation technique.

McConnell, Director of National Intelligence, was quoted in the New Yorker edition released on Sunday as defining torture as "something that would cause excruciating pain."

Asked if waterboarding -- the practice of covering a person's face with a cloth and then dripping water on it to bring on a feeling of drowning -- fit that definition, McConnell said that for him personally, it would.

"If I had water draining into my nose, oh God, I just can't imagine how painful!" McConnell said in the article. "Whether it's torture by anybody else's definition, for me it would be torture."

But he rejected a suggestion that he personally condemned the practice.

The reputation of the United States has been badly tarnished internationally by its harsh treatment of prisoners detained in President George W. Bush's war against terrorism, particularly those held at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq and at the Guantanamo naval base on Cuba.

U.S. Attorney General Michael Mukasey has declined to rule on whether waterboarding is torture.

"You can do waterboarding lots of ways ... I assume you can get to the point that a person is actually drowning," McConnell said in the New Yorker article, which paraphrased him as agreeing that this would certainly be torture.

McConnell said he could not be more specific because "if it ever is determined to be torture, there will be a huge penalty to be paid for anyone engaging in it."

When asked whether the United States had gotten meaningful information through torture, McConnell denied the United States uses torture, then added that "tons" of meaningful information had been received using certain interrogation techniques: "Does it save lives? Tons!"

CIA spokesman Mark Mansfield noted this assertion in an e-mailed statement and defended the CIA's actions.

"The information developed through the detention and interrogation program has been irreplaceable, and the program has operated in strict accord with American law," Mansfield said. "If the CIA had not stepped forward to hold and interrogate hardened terrorists, people would be right to ask why. Our country is safer for it."

The New Yorker article was published as the Intelligence Committee in the House of Representatives investigates the CIA's destruction of videotapes showing interrogations of al Qaeda suspects, at least two of whom are known to have been subjected to waterboarding.

The videotapes were made in 2002 and destroyed three years later out of fears they would leak.

Last month the Democratic-controlled House approved a bill that would ban the CIA from using harsh interrogation techniques, like waterboarding, that are not allowed by the military.

President Bush last year issued an executive order to allow the CIA to use "enhanced interrogation techniques" that go beyond the rules adopted by the U.S. Army. He has threatened to veto the bill passed by the House if it is also approved by the Senate.

[LorDiego01]

I think we learned during the middle ages that torture is NOT a reliable way to get information, for you see...

a person will say ANYTHING to stop the pain.


And really... if terrorists use torture.. and WE use torture.. then where does that leave us???

What about the wrongly accused who were tortured? Don't you think that if these people who were innocent (there's at LEAST 5 cases) won't get out of that place and become american-hating terrorists just because of our actions?

Here's an idea.. how about we try these people, in an open and fair trial, and if they are found guilty of terrorism, THEN we can torture them and put that shit up on pay-per-view for the whole world to see. But as it stands now, with "military tribunals", these people are not even afforded a trial. If we know that they are guilty.. is it that hard to prove it??

As my final words on this thread, people like you truly disgust me. People like you make America look bad. If this thing continues, somebody close to you, if not you yourself, someday may have a taste of your own medicine.

It happened in Argentina just before I was born, and if you doubt this final piece of wisdom, ask my "disappeared" cousin, 20 year old college student, guilty of thought crimes.

We still don't know what happened to him, and we never will. (among 30,000 others)

Just think about that.

[LorDiego01]

The chief of the U.S. military said Sunday he favors closing the prison here as soon as possible because he believes negative publicity worldwide about treatment of terrorist suspects has been "pretty damaging" to the image of the United States.

[larrymeyer]

I think we learned during the middle ages that torture is NOT a reliable way to get information, for you see...

a person will say ANYTHING to stop the pain.


And really... if terrorists use torture.. and WE use torture.. then where does that leave us???

What about the wrongly accused who were tortured? Don't you think that if these people who were innocent (there's at LEAST 5 cases) won't get out of that place and become american-hating terrorists just because of our actions?

I don't have a problem with a trial but let's have it in their own country under their laws. Why should they be afforded our laws they don't live by them how many reporters have been killed by having their head cut off ? How many soldiers have been tortured ? Maybe we should just pat them on the head and let them go with our blessings as long as they promise not to hurt an American in the future.

As for you cousin I feel sorry for him. My own cousin is embedded with an anti American group in Iraq for our government and we haven't heard from him in six months. You forget most already hate us for our support of Israel

Oh yes I've I digusted a lot of people when I came home in a soldiers uniform from Nam and was spit on and called a baby killer etc. How ever nobody ever handed thoses people a baby the exploded in your hands

[larrymeyer]

As my final words on this thread, people like you truly disgust me. People like you make America look bad. If this thing continues, somebody close to you, if not you yourself, someday may have a taste of your own medicine.

It happened in Argentina just before I was born, and if you doubt this final piece of wisdom, ask my "disappeared" cousin, 20 year old college student, guilty of thought crimes.

We still don't know what happened to him, and we never will. (among 30,000 others)

Just think about that.

And people like you make America look weak. Ask any family member of 9/11 how they feel. But I know you would tell me they were just misunderstood boys. That were following their beliefs and they all went to heaven were they were given 40 virgins to take care of them they should have been given 40 Virginians to kick the out of them. As for my disgusting you if it wan't for people like me you would be wareing a Khimer and a Jibab and not allowed to attend school or even go outside without a male member of you family.

Was you cousin the collage student the one with the gun's for the Red Path buried in the yard ?

[Pukindog]

If we let all of the prisoners go that will solve nothing. Do we have them sign a chit promising to be good boys? In the eyes of our enemies it would show lack of resolve. It would make them bolder and an even greater threat to our way of life. Does anyone really think if we stopped torturing captives our enemies would follow suit. Get real. Human life means nothing to them. These people are our enemies. They are POW. Not entitled to a civil trial. The US has very few friends in this world.
Have we not learned our lessons yet? Let the military run the war. The politicians, Hollywood types, ( especially ) media, etc. need to stay out of it and keep their mouths shut and opinions to themselves. This country does have it's problems. I have been all over this world complements of our Uncle, and I can assure you there is nowhere else I would rather live. So if torture saves one American life I say go for it. Backing down on our beliefs and convictions get us nowhere. Appeasement surely will get us nothing. If we do not defeat these butchers over there we will surely be forced to fight them here.
Jeff

[LorDiego01]

I don't have a problem with a trial but let's have it in their own country under their laws. Why should they be afforded our laws they don't live by them how many reporters have been killed by having their head cut off ? How many soldiers have been tortured ? Maybe we should just pat them on the head and let them go with our blessings as long as they promise not to hurt an American in the future.

well... if you are reporter and you choose to go down to that hell hole, you are accepting responsibility for what might happen to you. There are no Americans, reporters or not, getting their heads chopped off in America. I say we stay here and let them kill each other.

As for you cousin I feel sorry for him. My own cousin is embedded with an anti American group in Iraq for our government and we haven't heard from him in six months. You forget most already hate us for our support of Israel

I truly hope your cousin fares much, much better than mine did. But then again, he's engaging in a voluntary action to go there and get that job done (and props to him, I wouldn't have the courage to do that). My cousin just went to class one day, and never came back. That's the difference.

Oh yes I've I digusted a lot of people when I came home in a soldiers uniform from Nam and was spit on and called a baby killer etc. How ever nobody ever handed thoses people a baby the exploded in your hands

People who blame soldiers for war are truly despicable, ignorant pieces of trash that do not deserve the air they breathe. Its like blaming mexicans for immigration problems, or drug users for the drug war, and ignoring the actions of politicians that create the problem in the first place. Although we may disagree, at least know that I'd never do something like that. Matter of fact, I'll join you for a round of bitch-slapping those people any day of the week.

[LorDiego01]

And people like you make America look weak.

Really? Thats intresting, I'd say we are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay weaker as a nation with this war on terror than we were before it. Just look at the anti-american feelings throughout the whole world, and how many countries are taking a direct stance against our country. (Russia, China, Iran, Venezuela, ect)
And lets not even talk about the economy........

Ask any family member of 9/11 how they feel.

I'm sure they feel disgusted that we are NOT going after the people who planned 911, and instead we are torturing Iraqi peasants.

But I know you would tell me they were just misunderstood boys. That were following their beliefs and they all went to heaven were they were given 40 virgins to take care of them they should have been given 40 Virginians to kick the out of them.

No, thats just silly, and has no basis on this argument.

As for my disgusting you if it wan't for people like me you would be wareing a Khimer and a Jibab and not allowed to attend school or even go outside without a male member of you family.

I highly, HIGHLY, doubt that. So you guys fight for our freedoms..... just so the government can legislate them away?????????

Or are you saying that American's are cowards, and they'd bend over and allow something like that to happen? I think not buddy. Let ANYONE try to invade America and force their doctrine on us. I can tell you it wouldn't go that well for them.

Was you cousin the collage student the one with the gun's for the Red Path buried in the yard ?

I don't understand your reference.

[LorDiego01]

If we let all of the prisoners go that will solve nothing.
It would make them bolder and an even greater threat to our way of life.
Does anyone really think if we stopped torturing captives our enemies would follow suit. Get real. Human life means nothing to them. These people are our enemies. They are POW. Not entitled to a civil trial. The US has very few friends in this world.
Have we not learned our lessons yet? Let the military run the war. The politicians, Hollywood types, ( especially ) media, etc. need to stay out of it and keep their mouths shut and opinions to themselves. This country does have it's problems. I have been all over this world complements of our Uncle, and I can assure you there is nowhere else I would rather live. So if torture saves one American life I say go for it. Backing down on our beliefs and convictions get us nowhere. Appeasement surely will get us nothing. If we do not defeat these butchers over there we will surely be forced to fight them here.
Jeff

I dont think I've ever read a post that contradicted itself so much and on so many points. If I had the time, I'd point all it out.

[LittleRedToyota]

for me, the real problem is that i have no faith in our intelligence. i don't believe for one second that everyone we have in custody at gitmo or in afghanistan or iraq are actually guilty of anything.

i don't really have any problem with waterboarding people who actually are terrorists...not that i think it does much good...but actual terrorists deserve it.

(enemy combatants...which i define as people who attack only military targets, and, in the case of attacking military targets of a foreign occupation force i don't personally see how it matters whether they wear a uniform or not--i would be attacking any foreign occupation force in america without wearing a uniform, too... however, imho, do not. enemy combatants should be killed on the battlefield or held as POWs, imho.)

the problem, though, is that there are undoubtedly completely innocent people being held at gitmo...and especially in iraq. these people deserve due process just by the fact that they were born.

and, since there is no way to really know right off who is guilty and who is innocent (given how badly our intelligence has been demonstrably flawed over the last 10 years or so), we need to provide due process to them all...so that we can make a reasonable and as accurate as possible determination of who really is a terrorist (and thus deserves whatever comes their way) and who is really innocent (and therefore should be released) and who is really a legitimate resistance fighter who should be held as a POW.

to really look at this situation objectively, you have to put the shoe on the other foot. suppose you had a loved one who was doing relief work in, say the west bank. the israeli government does a raid and, based on faulty intelligence, assumes your loved one is a terrorist. without providing any due process, they torture your loved one then throw him/her in jail.

are you going to view that as acceptable "collateral damage" in the war on terror?