Delaware Water Gap National Recreation Area

[Lexington]

Well, we're going camping at some point in the near future to the Delaware Water Gap National Recreation Area. Some of the wife's friends arranged it, and I agreed to go.

Problem is it's going to be on the New Jersey side of the Gap, not the Pennsylvania side. Specifically, we'll be in Worthington State Forest, which apparently falls under the umbrella of the National Recreation Area? Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on that. The map on the NPS's website shows it as part of their jurisdiction, but I'm not 100% sure how all that works.

I know that laws changed in National Parks and that the carrying of firearms is legal in National Parks, but as I was exploring the NPS's site I came across an interesting caveat:

"Visitors may possess firearms within a national park unit provided they comply with federal, state, and local laws."

Website is here: http://www.nps.gov/nero/firearms/NJ/index.htm

Is this a backdoor way of disallowing the carrying of firearms in National Parks that fall inside the boundaries of states that are vehemently anti-gun such as New Jersey?

A little help would be appreciated. Also going to remember that if they want to do this again I'm strongly recommending staying on the PA side of the park. Limits confusion.

[twoguns]

Is this a backdoor way of disallowing the carrying of firearms in National Parks that fall inside the boundaries of states that are vehemently anti-gun such as New Jersey?

Actually it is a front door way! You may not carry in N.J. end of story.

Why not get the camp out changed to the PA side so you may exercise you RTKBA while enjoying the great outdoors?

[Lexington]

Actually it is a front door way! You may not carry in N.J. end of story.

Why not get the camp out changed to the PA side so you may exercise you RTKBA while enjoying the great outdoors?

Thanks for the quick response, twoguns!

Yeah, I was doing some additional research and came up with that same conclusion that state jurisdiction reigns supreme in this parks law. In that case New Leningrad is most definitely off limits.

I already tried getting them to change the location, and for whatever reason they want to stay on the New Jersey side. I don't claim to understand my wife's friends, though.

[tl_3237]

Well, we're going camping at some point in the near future to the Delaware Water Gap National Recreation Area. Some of the wife's friends arranged it, and I agreed to go.

Problem is it's going to be on the New Jersey side of the Gap, not the Pennsylvania side. Specifically, we'll be in Worthington State Forest, which apparently falls under the umbrella of the National Recreation Area? Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on that. The map on the NPS's website shows it as part of their jurisdiction, but I'm not 100% sure how all that works.

I know that laws changed in National Parks and that the carrying of firearms is legal in National Parks, but as I was exploring the NPS's site I came across an interesting caveat:

"Visitors may possess firearms within a national park unit provided they comply with federal, state, and local laws."

Website is here: http://www.nps.gov/nero/firearms/NJ/index.htm

Is this a backdoor way of disallowing the carrying of firearms in National Parks that fall inside the boundaries of states that are vehemently anti-gun such as New Jersey?

A little help would be appreciated. Also going to remember that if they want to do this again I'm strongly recommending staying on the PA side of the park. Limits confusion.

Actually that's not really what happened. The NPR regulation (36 CFR 2.4(a)(1)(i)) prohibiting firearms still exists. What was changed is that a Federal statute was passed that prohibits the DOI from enforcing that regulation under certain circumstances:

16 USC §1a-7b
(b) Protecting the right of individuals to bear arms in units of the National Park System and the National Wildlife Refuge System
The Secretary of the Interior shall not promulgate or enforce any regulation that prohibits an individual from possessing a firearm including an assembled or functional firearm in any unit of the National Park System or the National Wildlife Refuge System if—
(1) the individual is not otherwise prohibited by law from possessing the firearm; and
(2) the possession of the firearm is in compliance with the law of the State in which the unit of the National Park System or the National Wildlife Refuge System is located.

Thus, while in a NP hosted within NJ, you must have an NJCCW or meet one of the NJ exemptions to carry a handgun. Otherwise you cannot claim the 'legal excuse' provided by title 16 and you become susceptible to the CFR regulation.

[Lexington]

tl_3237, I appreciate the response! Having not gone camping in many a moon I was not well versed on my weapons carry laws. In fact, last time I went camping was before anything had changed so I didn't even think to carry.

Haven't had much time to research the topic since the idea just hit me today. I'm really grateful for the responses. I learn more and more each day on these forums!

[JonEMTP]

Yes, that is a NJ State Forest (in fact, the campgroud area didn't look too bad when I was there this spring). And because it's NJ, you don't get to bring your guns. Bummer, dude. I know your pain. My GF lives in NJ right now... so I'm unarmed every time I visit her.

There are lots of nice places in the NRA that are hidden gems... some nice waterfalls, hiking trails, etc.

[glocke12]

I can't recomend this area enough for hiking and camping.

The hike up to sunfish pond is great...instead of taking the white trail (adirondack trail) up, take the dingmans falls trail (it is either blue or green).

As for carrying, it is NJ so you know the rules..although I do know of people who kept a revolver in their pack when hiking up there (this was not me).

Lots of wildlife to be seen. I have seen rattlesnakes, black bears, what I believe to be a coyote, and plenty of deer.

Just as an FYI, on weekends the trail can be very busy,and at times there are some folks on there that are pretty ignorant.

[rovert97]

I've camped many times on the NJ side at the state park campground. It is nice. But no guns allows period. Be very aware of the bears there too. Keep all food in a closed car while it's not being watched at the site. If you were on the PA side you wouldn have any gun issues unless you tried to go into any of the park service info buildings. They are federal buildings and as such are gun free zones.

[Raystown]

This area is a great place to get out and about .. Beautiful country .. River nice and clean .. One of the best parts of our area to go camping .. fishing and hiking ..



Raystown

[SCBaldr]

Having been an LEO in the park service I can say that it this specific piece of law in 36 CFR doesn't have much to do with the park service liking or not liking guns. Before Feb. 22, 2010 possession of a firearm was illegal in any national park service administered site. The reason for this was that it was written into 16 USC that any type of poaching, animal, vegetable or mineral was automatically graded a felony, hence it was in 16 USC. The intent was to have grounds to arrest and jail poachers, who would obviously be carrying firearms. Fast forward about 90 years and the issue of poaching wildlife in a national park has shrunk to the point where we spend way more time catching vegetable or mineral poachers than animal ones. Simultaneously, the need for self defense has also gone through the roof. Therefore, finally on Feb. 22, 2010. The big credit card reform bill went into effect, attached to that was this reversal of policy concerning firearms.

As for why it matters which state you are in as far as the federal LEOs of the park service are concerned. Remember that the jurisdiction of the rangers is far from absolute. Only in a few parks do the NPS LE rangers have exclusive jurisdiction. There are four types of jurisdiction: Exclusive, no one but an NPS LE may enforce any law in the confines of the site, unless by a written memorandum of understanding (MOU). Concurrent, any sworn LEO, state, local or federal, may enforce any law, state local or federal as long as they are deputized by each others authority. Proprietary, the NPS LEs have the same authority as a private landowner on his or her own land and must enforce the state / municipality's laws, but if an arrest is made, you have to call the county sheriffs to come deal with it. Finally, there is partial jurisdiction, where a special contract is drawn up between whoever is involved. Most parks in the system are proprietary. That means that the LEs are like the landowner's representatives. So they have to abide by and enforce the laws of whichever state they happen to be in. In the case of New Jersey, it sucks a big asshole in the sky, but there is nothing anyone can do about it.