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  1. #1
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    Default Fleeing Felon Rule?

    Has anyone ever heard of this? I was browsing wikipedia the other day and came across this article:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fleeing_felon_rule

    In Common law, the Fleeing Felon Rule permits the use of force, including deadly force, against an individual who is suspected of a felony and is in clear flight.[citation needed] Force may be used by the victim, bystanders, or police officers.
    I've been unable to find an actual Federal Law that says anything about this. I'm wondering if this is legit or if it's just another BS wiki article that someone invented. It's interesting because in theory it may sanction the use of deadly force against a 'retreating' assailant.

    Any ideas/laws?
    "Improvise. Adapt. Overcome."

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Fleeing Felon Rule?

    Yes, that doctrine (fleeing felon) was not law per se but was old and outdated doctrine, nothing to do with Federal Law. Reseach Tennesse v Garner and that case will shed some light on this subject. The case brought about what is now referred to "FLeeing Felon Rule."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennessee_v._Garner

    http://www.4lawschool.com/criminal/garner.htm

    http://supreme.justia.com/us/471/1/case.html

    CL
    Last edited by customloaded; August 19th, 2011 at 08:24 AM.

  3. #3
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    Exclamation Re: Fleeing Felon Rule?

    This is the WHOLE reason I think Amber alerts are useless.

    1) if you're not going to give me a DETAILED description of the PERP, the suspect vehicle (including license plate number), which way they were headed, etc., than what's the FRICKIN' point!?!? "OooooOoOOoOoOOoOOoh... a CHILD is missing!" SO WHAT?!?!? I can't do SQUAT about it, based on the piddly-ass NON-description you get in an Amber alert!!!

    2) You give me a decent description, and license to go DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!!! Run the perp off the road, open fire on their car if I see it, pull him from the burning wreckage and let me beat him with a tire iron, etc. You put some damn TEETH into an Amber alert, and the thuggaz will be a shiiteload more scared of the citizenry, than they ever will be the cops and judges!!!

    As the old doctrine allowed for, which the OP cited, the idea was to put the FEAR OF GOD into bad guys, so they wouldn't BE bad guys! All the current system allows for, is hand-wringing...

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Fleeing Felon Rule?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_War_Wagon View Post
    This is the WHOLE reason I think Amber alerts are useless.

    2) You give me a decent description, and license to go DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!!! Run the perp off the road, open fire on their car if I see it, pull him from the burning wreckage and let me beat him with a tire iron, etc. You put some damn TEETH into an Amber alert, and the thuggaz will be a shiiteload more scared of the citizenry, than they ever will be the cops and judges!!!
    Right, open fire on a vehicle with an abducted child inside. Good call. They want you to keep your eyes open. If you see the car, call the cops.
    Last edited by TheWolff; August 19th, 2011 at 08:22 AM. Reason: spelling

  5. #5
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    Question Re: Fleeing Felon Rule?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheWolff View Post
    Right, open fire on a vehicle with an abducted child inside. Good call. They want you to keep your eyes open. If you see the car, call the cops.
    WHAT CAR?!?! They don't even give THAT much, MOST of the time!!!

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Fleeing Felon Rule?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheWolff View Post
    Right, open fire on a vehicle with an abducted child inside. Good call. They want you to keep your eyes open. If you see the car, call the cops.
    I think you missed his point.
    "Improvise. Adapt. Overcome."

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Fleeing Felon Rule?

    Quote Originally Posted by F16vipers View Post
    I think you missed his point.
    No, I got it loud and clear. He said he wants a description and license plate of the vehicle and he wants the authority to open fire on it or run it off the road. Those are his words.

    Maybe that's why they don't give people like him authority to do things like that. There's a serious lack of critical thinking going on there. Opening fire on a car with a kid in it? Even if you happen to miss the kid, the car is going to crash when you shoot the driver or run it off the road. You think that'd be good if a kid is in the trunk?

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Fleeing Felon Rule?

    What is a felon?

    Suppose I see someone possessing a machinegun or a firearm with an altered, changed, removed or obliterated manufacturer's number. I tell them that I am arresting them for a felony. They run. They run forever. I can just shoot him in the back, right?

    When is a felon not a felon?

    "A private person in fresh pursuit of one who has committed a felony may arrest without a warrant. And in Pennsylvania we have always followed the common law rule that if the felon flees and his arrest cannot be effected without killing him, the killing is justified. We hasten to note that before the use of deadly force is justified the private person must be in fresh pursuit of the felon and also must give notice of his purpose to arrest for the felony if the attending circumstances are themselves insufficient to warn the felon of the intention of the pursuing party to arrest him.
    The common law principle that a killing necessary to prevent the escape of a felon is justifiable developed at a time when the distinction between felony and misdemeanor was very different than it is today. Statutory expansion of the class of felonies has made the common law rule manifestly inadequate for modern law.2 Hence, the need for a change or limitation in the rule is indicated. We therefore hold that from this date forward the use of deadly force by a private person in order to prevent the escape of one who has committed a felony or has joined or assisted in the commission of a felony is justified only if the felony committed is treason, murder, voluntary manslaughter, mayhem, arson, robbery, common law rape, common law burglary, kidnapping, assault with intent to murder, rape or rob, or a felony which normally causes or threatens death or great bodily harm. We also note that for the use of deadly force to be justified it remains absolutely essential, as before, that one of the enumerated felonies has been committed and that the person against whom the force is used is the one who committed it or joined or assisted in committing it. If the private citizen acts on suspicion that such a felony has been committed, he acts at his own peril. For the homicide to be justifiable, it must be established that his suspicion was correct."
    Commonwealth v. Chermansky, 430 Pa. 170, 173-174 (Pa. 1968) (citations and footnotes omitted). http://scholar.google.com/scholar_ca...13411915377100

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Fleeing Felon Rule?

    Quote Originally Posted by MDJschool View Post
    What is a felon?

    Suppose I see someone possessing a machinegun or a firearm with an altered, changed, removed or obliterated manufacturer's number. I tell them that I am arresting them for a felony. They run. They run forever. I can just shoot him in the back, right?

    When is a felon not a felon?

    "A private person in fresh pursuit of one who has committed a felony may arrest without a warrant. And in Pennsylvania we have always followed the common law rule that if the felon flees and his arrest cannot be effected without killing him, the killing is justified. We hasten to note that before the use of deadly force is justified the private person must be in fresh pursuit of the felon and also must give notice of his purpose to arrest for the felony if the attending circumstances are themselves insufficient to warn the felon of the intention of the pursuing party to arrest him.
    The common law principle that a killing necessary to prevent the escape of a felon is justifiable developed at a time when the distinction between felony and misdemeanor was very different than it is today. Statutory expansion of the class of felonies has made the common law rule manifestly inadequate for modern law.2 Hence, the need for a change or limitation in the rule is indicated. We therefore hold that from this date forward the use of deadly force by a private person in order to prevent the escape of one who has committed a felony or has joined or assisted in the commission of a felony is justified only if the felony committed is treason, murder, voluntary manslaughter, mayhem, arson, robbery, common law rape, common law burglary, kidnapping, assault with intent to murder, rape or rob, or a felony which normally causes or threatens death or great bodily harm. We also note that for the use of deadly force to be justified it remains absolutely essential, as before, that one of the enumerated felonies has been committed and that the person against whom the force is used is the one who committed it or joined or assisted in committing it. If the private citizen acts on suspicion that such a felony has been committed, he acts at his own peril. For the homicide to be justifiable, it must be established that his suspicion was correct."
    Commonwealth v. Chermansky, 430 Pa. 170, 173-174 (Pa. 1968) (citations and footnotes omitted). http://scholar.google.com/scholar_ca...13411915377100
    Yeppers.

    Chermansky's definition is how many other states define the same issue. In those states those crimes are called "forcible felonies". I agree with Chermansky, there are many felonies today that do not warrant shooting someone over. But those forcible type felonies that were enumerated in Chermansky without a doubt should allow shooting the fleeing perp if there is no risk of injuring an innocent bystander.
    RIP: SFN, 1861, twoeggsup, Lambo, jamesjo, JayBell, 32 Magnum, Pro2A, mrwildroot, dregan, Frenchy, Fragger, ungawa, Mtn Jack, Grapeshot, R.W.J., PennsyPlinker, Statkowski, Deanimator, roland, aubie515

    Don't end up in my signature!

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Fleeing Felon Rule?

    Quote Originally Posted by customloaded View Post
    Yes, that doctrine (fleeing felon) was not law per se but was old and outdated doctrine, nothing to do with Federal Law. Reseach Tennesse v Garner and that case will shed some light on this subject. The case brought about what is now referred to "FLeeing Felon Rule."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennessee_v._Garner

    http://www.4lawschool.com/criminal/garner.htm

    http://supreme.justia.com/us/471/1/case.html

    CL
    Garner was a civil restriction on police action. It left things open to the states to decide. Michigan's Supreme Court ruled after Garner that it's own laws govern what the average citizen may do - which the Fleeing Felon may still be killed. Nevada ruled that citizens may not. With those unchallenged in the US Supreme Court, PA's Chermansky ruling stands as the governing policy in Pennsylvania - and it was cited again in 2005 by PA's Supreme Court in Kopko v Miller. You can in deed shoot fleeing felons if you cannot effect an arrest of the enumerated crimes from Chermansky in PA.
    RIP: SFN, 1861, twoeggsup, Lambo, jamesjo, JayBell, 32 Magnum, Pro2A, mrwildroot, dregan, Frenchy, Fragger, ungawa, Mtn Jack, Grapeshot, R.W.J., PennsyPlinker, Statkowski, Deanimator, roland, aubie515

    Don't end up in my signature!

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