Carrying while hunting

[LittleRedToyota]

in case anyone else hadn't heard, PA House Bill 2563 recently passed the PA house by a vote of 189-8 and has been sent to the state senate.

this bill would remove the restriction against carrying a semi-auto while hunting for LTCF holders.

here is the text of the bill:

http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs...&type=B&BN=2563

[JayBell]

its about time, I hope it passes.

it takes a stupid ignorant sumbiatch of a PAGC officer that thinks that if I'm hunting with a rifle, or a bow, or a whatever, that I'm going to discard my chosen MUCH more accurate and powerful hunting weapon and suddenly drag out my 1911 or HK USP to blast away at those deer that arfe 60yds over there.

when I put the gun and bow down for gutting or game retrieval is when the CCW firearm may be needed against 2 or 4 legged predators.

I usually carry a 44spl revolver while hunting just because those ignorant stupid PAGC officers DO exist.

[Steve in PA]

Maybe not with the rifle, but I can see certain people hunting with a bow, popping a shot off at a deer, then walking over and sticking an arrow in it.

And claiming the PGC officers are ignorant and stupid because of the current laws makes you look that way, not them.

[27hand]

LRT, That certainly sounds like good news.

I have never felt undergunned carrying a S&W 66 concealed as opposed to a semi while hunting.

The following is a bit off topic.

You know, while some officers of the PGC have kind of a power thing going while doing their duties, I think the # that do this are generally insignificant.

Most of these guys and or gals signed on to do a job. Just like you or me strive to do our job at the best level we can, I think this is the general attitude of game commission officers. They are just doing their job.
My opinion on the # of people who would shoot a deer with a firearm and stick an arrow into it are also minimal or maybe I just hope it's that way.

I have trained with Game commission officers (2 as far as I know) and asked them.
"What would you do if you saw me archery hunting in your area knowing I generally carry a firearm?"

One guy said "If I saw you in a treestand holding your bow, waiting for deer,and I know you carry concealed, I would just go my way unless I saw you holding your pistol or seeing it readily available to the point I thought you might use it to kill an animal."

The other guy said he would bust me on the spot. I didn't get into legalities with him on searching me etc,etc.

Quite a few years ago, a few archery hunters were shot and killed by someone who was robbing them. I can't remember the state. Maybe Ohio or Wisconsin. If i remember correctly, the BG was caught in Fla. Same crime but a vic survived and somehow ID'd him. If the game laws were less strict about having a firearm during archery, maybe this wouldn't have happened.

The chances of having something happen in the woods is small but it can happen . I had a pack of dogs around me about 7 or 8 yrs back as I made my way to my truck. They had been eating a dead deer about 100 yds from where I was hunting and i guess the noise I made climbing down attracted them to me. I got very nervous( hell, i was scared) and held an arrow in each hand to use if they attacked me. That was the last time I was in the woods unarmed.

Out of sight, out of mind. I doubt a field officer would even ask if they stopped you in the woods. They might check your license and such, but I personally don't think the handgun issue would even come up.

Well, peepee steps first. Carrying semi's with LTCF during general hunting seasons and maybe next will be LTCF while archery hunting.

27

[JayBell]

Steve in PA:

let me state first, i'm no kneejerk cop hater. period.

I'm only 37, but I've got a LOT of experience with ignorant and stupid LEOs from all agencies, federal, local, state, and PAGC....let me tell you about the PAGC officer I met in the woods one opening day of deer season who was wearing PJs, a robe, slippers, and a badge some time

I'm also a person who has NEVER had a legal issue of any kind, i have no record, I have held a permit for over 15yrs now, owned NFA for over 10yrs, etc etc...I'm no fool when it comes to the law myself, I do research work on legal cases for a buddy as an assistant.

however, what I meant with the statement was a poorly phrased way of indicating that this is the reason I have been told BY PAGC officers to my face as to why I not only cant carry a CCW gun during bow season at all, and why I cant carry a semiauto during rifle or otherwise hunting seasons.

I had one go so far as to tell me in small game seaon in my 22RF/Shotgun only area that my 44SPL revolver ccw gun could be confiscated and i could be arrested and fined as the small game area was for rimfire only.

this is ignorant grandstanding at best, and pure bullying intimidation at worst over the ridiculous "possibility" that I'll be popping off at squirrels and rabbits with a 3.5" barrel 44spl.

Yes, I also have some great experiences with good hardworking LE professionals who know not only thier job, and the laws they enforce, but some of these guys I count as my personal friends, even some PAGC officers in the nockamixon area i have found to be well informed, and not the bully that most of them seem to be, at least in my experiences.

in a legal system where we get "ignorance of the law is no excuse" and sent to jail, the same should be a firing offence on the LEO side.

there's a big difference between being THOUGHT ignorant, or actually BEING ignorant

so ignorance on all sides has differnce consequences for those without the badge, versus those with.

[Archiver]

And claiming the PGC officers are ignorant and stupid because of the current laws makes you look that way, not them.

Not to me! He clearly didnt mean ALL PGC Officers...you're getting too "blue brother" touchy...Nobody likes the Barny Fife types who'd drag an old lady down to the station for jaywalking
Intent of law makers is often clouded and interpreted based on discretion and circumstance. You probably are forced to make such decisions daily yourself.

[Steve in PA]

I'm missing something here, your saying the PGC officer is ignornat because you can't carry a handgun (any handgun) while archery hunting and you can't carry a semi-auto while hunting with a rifle or shotgun?

He's right, because you currently can't!

And currently CCW laws do not over ride hunting laws, so yes, you could have been cited for hunting with an illegal weapon, your 44spl. Its not ignorant grandstanding, its him knowing the law and you didn't.

Small Game/Regulations
Arms & Ammunition
1) Manually operated and autoloading shotguns with a capacity of no more than 3 shells in the chamber and magazine combined; 2) Manually operated rifles and handguns less than 23 caliber.................

You might want to brush up on your legal research.

And as far as me being "touchy", try again. The only thing I'm touchy about is people posting things they know nothing about, but claim they do. maybe people should READ the hunting laws so that they know what they can and cannot do instead of talking trash about the PGC.

[JayBell]

I think that you still think i'm pasting all the brothers in blue as one bad bunch, and thats not my intent.

the difference here is that the 44spl revolver being carried in a IWB rig concealed under the jacket/vest etc is obviously NOT a hunting weapon, is not presented or carried as a hunting weapon, and not intended for use as a hunting weapon, and clearly unsuitable as a hunting weapon for the particular hunting being quoted.

I was hunting specifically with a weapon that was within the regs.
I was NOT hunting with a weapon that was outside the regs, regardless of concealed posession....possession for a altogether different purpose.

thus, regardless of "regulations" notwithstanding, the case portrayed that I "could" use it for an unauthorized purpose is just grandstanding.

if he had happened along with my 44spl in hand, obviously being carried, presented and intending to blow the dickens out of a squirrel, yes indeed, i would be actually hunting with that weapon.

it's not just the LAW or regulations that has to be looked at, its intent, and action, and individual humans have the ability to both USE the brain they were born with to make a decision about this sort of thing.

Sure, the guy could have caused me trouble, and the law would have backed him up, at least til the court fight, OR, the guy could have chose what he ultimately did, and gave me the notice of what he could do, and then dismiss the issue as unreasonable, as its obvious that I had neither intent nor reason to put my scoped 22 down and resort to the 44spl that was deliberately carried for personal protection.

LE officers make this kind of decision every day, point being, theres a LOT of unreasonable laws and regulations that get if not ignored, but at least the light of logic is shone on them to match up with intent, and often the individual officer makes the decision not to pursue something thats a technicality.

Its a personal prerogative that gets exercised every day by LE everywhere, like pulling a guy over on the way home from the range and finding a pistol in a locked case that has a loaded mag in it, and just telling the guy to keep it unloaded if he doesn't have a permit, and sending him on his way.

Technically the LEO should have cuffed and stuffed the guy for illegal CCW...right?
or did the LEO recognize the guy had no intent to break a law.

I'm not saying that ALL PAGC officers are ignorant or stupid, neither is all LE from other agencies, most are good guys, honestly wanting to enforce the law.
others are out there to prove something, and sometimes its the personal power quotient that interferes with logical interpretation of the situation.

thats my point here.

so under pure legal points, sure, I could have gotten in trouble.

[Steve in PA]

It doesn't matter if the weapon is visible or tucked inside, it is an ILLEGAL weapon, period. Nothing you can say changes that. It cannot be carried while hunting. It does not have to be carried at the ready. The mere possession of it on your person is a violation of the law, subjecting you to arrest and confiscation of the firearm.

As for your shooter on the way home, the intent already happened by having the weapon loaded. What further intent is needed? Lacking a license to carry he cannot have a loaded pistol in the vehicle. It would be up to the discretion of the officer not to charge the person, not because there was no intent, but rather he felt like giving the guy a break.

[JayBell]

actually, referring to the first issue, perhaps, but I'd have to see if there was a prohibition on posession, or just USE...I dont have the full statute to refer to just here.

on the second, actually, though there was a technical crime comitted, there was no criminal intent to actually commit a crime, just by a lack of knowledge or a failure to ensure it was not loaded, a law was broken.

"mens rea" is the term that is applied here, there was no criminal intent in either of the cases I referred to above, tho a technical breaking of the laws were committed.

merely having the gun loaded was not intent itself.

good read on Mens rea if you wish to do so...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea