Montgomery County Courthouse OC incident

[chipminto]

For my line of work I needed to go to the montco courthouse today to testify in a custody case. Since I carry a firearm, and certainly did not want to leave my firearm in my truck in Norristown, I chose to open carry my firearm into the courthouse so that it could be secured while I went about my business.

For some relevance, I go into Courthouses all over southeastern PA for my line of work...never had any issues with checking a firearm until today.

I walked into the front entrance, and immediately went to the nearest Sheriffs Deputy and told him that I needed to check a firearm. The Deputy decided to say very loudly "yes you do, do you have a license for that?" I informed him that I was not required to give him a license for open carrying a firearm. I was then told that this was "his house and his rules" and that I was going to show him my license. I told him that I was not going to give him my license, nor confirm or deny that I even had one. I asked again where I should go to check my firearm. At this point a younger Deputy motioned over to me to go over to him to check the firearm (I think maybe the rest of the guys were a little embarrassed at this guys behavior. ). The older deputy who was being loud and obnoxious, went to call his supervisor. The younger deputy asked for my ID, I told him that I didn't think he needed it (he was talking PADL at this point not LTCF) but verbally gave him my name to fill in the form for storing the firearm. All the while the older deputy is on the radio telling his supervisor to come on down to deal with the open carry guy.
I check the firearm and then go back to walk through the metal detector. The older deputy has me put my wallet, keys, and phone in the little bucket. I walk through the metal detector, and as I go through I see this deputy opening my wallet to go through it. I tell him very loudly and forcibly to cease looking through my wallet, that he has no right to dig into the contents of my wallet and that I wanted it back immediatly. He says again, this is my house and my rules. I reach for and take the wallet from him. And tell him to stop.
At this point I am moving through the door to go to my case, and I pass a Corporal. The deputy points me out to him and says that is the guy. The corporal comes to talk to me. I must point out that I have no issue with this Corporal. He was professional, treated me well, did not seek to embarrass me OR violate my rights. He asked me what the problem was, I explained to him that I did not have a problem, that I was acting lawfully and within my rights, that it was his deputy who had the issue. I then explained to him the situation. He also asked me for ID, but when I refused did not press the issue. He and I both disagree about an LEOs rights when encountering someone open carrying, I stood firm in my rights and would not bend. I told him that I needed to get to court, since I was the first witness. And went my way.
On the way back down to go out, I encountered the Corporal again. He asked me if I was headed out, I said I was, he said he would walk with me. About 100 yards before the entrance, he and I chatted for awhile. He said that he appreciated my position, that I did everything lawfully and that he wished more people would approach it they way I did. He also said he dealt with the deputy. We talked a bit, and we disagree on a few things, but the conversation wasn't bad, it was respectful on both sides. I believe I did a good job of holding my ground and explaining to him that a law abiding citizen should never be treated that way. He agreed. I also told him that I did not need to furnish my LTCF or ANY ID simply for open carrying. He agreed, with the normal LEO caveat that if he asked me for ID I should give it to him...I told him no, I wouldn't, and that he had to have RAS to get my ID. I asked him if he took the IDs of that lady (pointed to a lady walking by) or that man (another man walking by) he said no, and I said then you shouldn't be asking me for mine....we disagreed awhile more, but he was respectful and did not violate my rights or treat me in any other manner other then respectfully.

We walk back to the entrance, I hand in my paperwork to get my firearm, and I ask, in front of the older deputy how to file a complaint. The corporal tells me who to talk to, (and said it nicely, respectfully, and professionally) and then the older deputy says very loudly "Make sure you tell them how you treated us." I look right at the corporal, and say "see, this is what I mean. This is unprofessional and uncalled for. As a tax payer and a citizen of this commonwealth I do not deserve this treatment from him. It is rude and uncalled for" The deputy started to say something, but the corporal looked at him and said "Charlie, stop.". I then walked out.

After letting things calm down, I went back in another entrance to the courthouse (imagine, no problems) and then walked down to the Sheriffs Office and filed a complaint with Lt. Greg Womelsdorf. The Lt. was very nice, told me that the Deputy (name is Charles Wagg) was wrong, and that he would take care of it. A follow up email from him two hours later confirms that he has asked the Sheriff and Chief Deputy to look into the matter.

We will see what happens...thats all for now.

[OwnTheRide]

Bravo, well done!!!

[jpg5080]

Thanks for giving a positive representation of the OC community, as well as knowing the law and standing up for your rights! Good work.

[zackattack784]

Rep to you for a job well done.

[streaker69]

Good job!

I think you should contact the Sheriff's office and tell them that you expect all the officers there are properly trained on handling someone that is checking a firearm in the future.

As well as that violating the rights of a person by going through their personal things should not be tolerated. Considering that if you get stopped by a LEO on the road and you hand them your DL in a holder they ask you to remove it so as to not be accused of possibly stealing the $100 bill that was behind it. Same goes here, the officer that's going through the wallet is opening the sheriff's office to liability for whatever is missing from your wallet.

[King 5.45]

I've dealt with them before. In general, they're completely inconsistent in the way that they handle checking the weapons, lax in their application of screening procedures, and I've had them try to go through my ID folder as well. The one that you had issues with seems to usually be found in a dusty corner reading the paper. They need retraining and closer supervision, for sure.

[Lazydog]

Good job!!! My rep button says I need to spread the love.

[Curmudgeon]

Awesome! Very well done! It's not always so easy standing up to the little tyrants in their own playground. Please keep us informed.


chipminto > < charles wagg



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[acosenza2]

Great job, you represented OC'ers and the gun community as a whole in a very positive light and that is always appreciated.

[tommy610]

You been Rep-u-tized.